The role of Instructional Assistant at The Seattle School is somewhat different from what you may have encountered as Teaching Assistants in other academic contexts. All of our IAs hold Master鈥檚 degrees from The Seattle School or similar programs, and are practitioners at various stages within their chosen fields. Instructional Assistants work with faculty to ensure that you get the most out of your learning experience. They provide feedback on papers, are available to meet for office hours, and periodically teach and facilitate classroom interaction. Moreover, we ask IAs to bring their experience as former students and as practitioners in their current vocational contexts into all they do here at The Seattle School. Instructional Assistants are dedicated to your growth and development as students and are eager to walk alongside you in this journey. Get used to seeking them out! They are here for you.

Today we’d love to spotlight two of the IAs who are working specifically in First-Year courses this fall (see below). And while we move quickly towards the start of the academic year, on behalf of all of the instructional staff here at The Seattle School, we can鈥檛 wait to engage with you in the classroom soon.

Chris Curia (he/they)

Welcome, new students! I look forward to getting to know you more personally once the academic year begins. But first, I wanted to introduce myself here, extend my congratulations, and offer my best wishes for embarking on this next chapter in your professional journey. Having completed the MACP program in 2023 and the MATC-Community Development track in 2024, I am a recent Seattle School graduate and know what it is like to begin such an undertaking. I commend you for leaping!

As an alumnus, I credit many aspects of my formation at this small, beautiful, complicated graduate school for how my life looks today. Apart from my role on the Instructional Staff team, I am a psychotherapist based in downtown Seattle and a com性视界er on an advisory board with the City of Seattle. I am proud of my academic and personal work and the questions about belonging, equity, justice, identity, and liberation I wrestled with throughout my graduate years that have followed me into my career. As such, I returned to The Seattle School as an Instructional Assistant because of my belief that your graduate student years can be just as formative if you let them. So, it is my joy to come alongside you in whatever that journey will hold. I wish you all the best and plenty of rest in the weeks ahead, and I look forward to our work together this academic year!

Jessalyn Jackson (She/Her)

Welcome! My name is Jessalyn. I am looking forward to another academic year filled with the highs and lows of learning and self-discovery and supporting you along the way. I graduated with a Master of Arts in Counseling Psychology from Northwest University across the pond in Kirkland in 2019. Since then, I鈥檝e worked in a community mental health setting for about three years before transitioning to private practice. The emphasis on reflection and depth work at The Seattle School has had a profound impact on my personal and professional life. Because personal growth is a journey that never ends, I encourage you to engage in the work authentically and with curiosity and see where it takes you. Practice embodied self-compassion as you are seemingly inundated with knowledge and 性视界rmation. You will find that once your time here is done, you鈥檝e retained more than you think. Finally, enjoy connecting with your colleagues! You each have a wealth of knowledge, perspectives, and unique understanding to contribute that is invaluable. When I鈥檓 not a therapist, I’m a wife and mom to an 8th month old boy (Graham). I enjoy design, sports, and used to like going to the movies. I look forward to meeting you!

The post An Introduction to Instructional Assistants appeared first on The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology.

Welcome to your late Summer Edition of Continuing Conversations. We hope this newsletter finds you well. Here in the Office of Alumni, it has been a productive and exciting Summer. We have deepened our work immensely. We are so blessed by our new alumni. We are nurturing evolving alumni rhythms, tending to our new directory (see below!), and having wonderful conversations about expanding our community connections.

Huge News: Please join our !

We are now ready to welcome all alumni to join! We are ecstatic and hope you鈥檒l enjoy it and find it helpful!

• Signing up is free –!
• This is a public-facing resource
• If you are working in multiple states you will need to list each state in the Service Area to be searched for by location.
• We have broad vocational categories. Please use detailed language in your bio for the purpose of searching鈥揻or example 鈥榦ffers telehealth,鈥� ‘accepts insurance,’ or your church affiliation or denomination.
• Search functionality will be officially up and running in a couple of weeks after we get a bulk of alumni listings approved.
• If you have any feedback, questions, or needs related to this new tool please don鈥檛 hesitate to let us know at alumni@theseattleschool.edu!

Lastly, please contact me if you have any concerns about your email access or contacts 鈥� we have a new database and are working on improving all of our alumni data management 鈥� any issues can be sent directly to me at jskillman@theseattleschool.edu!

We send you all our love,
Jocelyn Skillman MACP 鈥�13
Supervisor of Alumni Outreach

Tributes

Over these past several months, several in our alumni community have known significant heartache as we have grieved the deaths of Elle Malmstrom MACP ’20, Tos Fackenthall MACP ’10, and Laurie Hovis MACP ’17. Thank you so much for sharing these tributes with us:听

• Tos鈥� tribute by Andrew Bauman, MACP ’10
• Laurie鈥檚 tribute by Maddy Miller, MACP ’17
• Elle鈥檚 tribute by Emersyn Hvile, MACP ’21

Please continue to pray for these three beautiful alumni, their families, and their circles of connection.

School News

Join Us at Convocation!

Convocation is around the corner! Please save the date and join us this September 14 at St. Mark’s Cathedral as we welcome, mark, and bless our incoming cohort and community! We strive to have every year of our school’s life walk with us through your alumni representation of a great embodied cloud of witnesses in our convocation ceremony & procession – contact alumni@theseattleschool.edu to RSVP by September 12 and get more details!

Alumni Support

MACP graduates: State Licensure process guidance varies wildly and uniquely depending on when you graduated, your coursework, and what the current guidelines are state-by-state 鈥� please contact Student & Academic Services if you have any licensure-related needs and they can help with advising.

Thank You to Our (S)ending Alumni Workshop Leaders!听

We want to extend a huge thank you to the incredible Bethany Bylsma MACP 鈥�16, Dan Cumberland MATC 鈥�13, Paula Womack MACP 鈥�10, and Martha McNeely MACP 鈥�17 who each led just incredible workshops for our graduating class鈥� (S)ending Season 鈥� on Private Practice, Entrepreneurship, Community Mental Health, and Finances 101, respectively! If you鈥檇 like to get in on their wisdom please email us at alumni@theseattleschool.edu and we will share their workshops and materials with their blessing!

IFPE Conference in Seattle

The International Forum For Psychoanalytic Education is hosting a conference in Seattle on October 17-19 that will have a large number of alumni presenters in attendance 鈥� and Dr. Caprice Hollins (former faculty) and John Totten MACP 鈥�12 will both be receiving IFPE鈥檚 Distinguished Educator awards! Congratulations! Please check out thefor more 性视界 and join your fellow alumni!听

Alumni Spotlight

Thank you Charlie Howell, MACP’16 for welcoming us into your life as we spotlight you and your passion for storytelling as a business consultant, tutor, and photographer. Learn more about Charlie’s journey and see some of the photos from his time as a student.

Read More about Charlie

Alumni News & Offerings

• Alejandra Morris, MACP ’20 received the Local Chapter Service Award at the upcoming APA Division 39 conference in April; this award is given to graduate students or early-career clinicians in recognition of service to their local psychoanalytic chapter organization, which in this case is the Northwest Alliance for Psychoanalytic Study (NWAPS). Congratulations, Alejandra!
• Dr. Lauren Sawyer MATC ’14 and Rebekah Vickery LMHC, MACP ’21, along with colleague Tessie Muskrat MA (University of Missouri – Columbia), represented the at the APA convention in Seattle on August 9, 2024. Together, they presented on the topic of “Sexuality and gender identity development in evangelical Christian purity culture.鈥澨�
• Knox Burnett MACP 鈥�13 recently released a second full-length album under the project name ! The album, entitled Entropy, was written over 4 years and was recently released digitally on streaming services and vinyl. Entropy brings into focus a wildly disruptive and transformative time in the artist’s personal life that undoubtedly resonates collectively.听 Find Willder on any and all streaming services (Spotify, Apple, Amazon, Youtube) or purchase vinyl by emailing willderband@gmail.com.
• Rachel Elder MACP ’17 and Connected Couples Counseling is offering the Bringing Baby Home Class on October 12 and 19 from 9:00-3:00 PST virtually. Learn how to enhance your relationship satisfaction with your partner and your baby. $500 per couple, including digital learning materials. Register by emailing admin@connectedcouplescounseling.co
• Lindsay Braman MACP ’19 continues to create incredible visual content making counseling skills & wisdom accessible and aesthetically gorgeous through her digital illustration work – she recently made a freaking gorgeous 鈥� check out her new, amazing prep and share widely!
• Julia Beck MACP ’24 is a recent MACP grad and amazing photographer 鈥揑f you or someone you know needs a portrait photographer (for families, headshots, seniors photos, etc.) reach out ! She just moved to Bellingham, but is frequently in the Seattle area.
• Victoria Hudson MACP ’22听 is seeking thought partners, advocates, shared intersections and resources around their evolving clinical work. They share: “This year, my work which previously focused on clients seeking support after or in the midst of mid to high-level interpersonal traumas has intersected with a high level of women with hEDS or POTS, whose medical experiences have tended to be systemically avoidant, abusive or bordering on unethical. My approach to counseling now continues to move more toward a clinical social work support style, intermixing advocacy and counseling, within a psychodynamic liberation frame. I am actively seeking out trauma-性视界rmed resources within WA State and beyond whose work with dysautonomia, and chronic health conditions can help to offer a more holistic approach to support for clients ranging and their close family members.” They can be contacted at: Victoria@restorativeresiliencecounseling.us
• Amber Englund MACP ’15 has been networking with the Family Support Consortium through Arc of King County which includes UW Autism Center and Children’s Hospital among other local non-profits for the past year 鈥� she has created a new consultation service – a . Go, Amber!
• Eli Harwood MACP 鈥�08 on August 31! Eli Harwood is a licensed therapist who lives in Colorado with her husband, Trevor, and their three children. Eli has been nerding out on attachment research for the past two decades and is on a 性视界 to help make the world a better place, one relationship at a time. She continues this 性视界 in her clinical work, her writing, and running her mouth about attachment on social media. Visit her at or you can follow her on Instagram, TikTok, and Facebook at attachmentnerd, where she has nearly a million followers
• Do you have any news? Let us know: jskillman@theseattleschool.edu

Faculty News

Goodbye to Dr. Stephanie Neill

Dr. Stephanie Neill has officially retired as of this academic year鈥檚 close. Dr. Neill dedicated over 20 years to teaching and training students, laboring alongside Christie Lynk, Steve Call, Chelle Stearns, Dr. Caprice Hollins, Roy Barsness, Jo-Ann Badley (to name a few!) and those still here to shape The Seattle School for the next generation of students, faculty, staff, and alumni. Many of us are recipients of her grounding clinical knowledge and ethical expertise. Stephanie鈥檚 passion for poetry and learning, participation in our life together, deep kindness, and ready laugh have marked us all. She will always be a part of us.

Welcome Dr. Lizz Barton!

Dr. Elizabeth (Lizz) Barton has joined the faculty of The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology! A licensed clinical psychologist in the state of Washington, she has received a degree in Psychology from Concordia University-Portland, a Master’s degree in Theology from Fuller Seminary as well as a PhD in Clinical Psychology at Fuller鈥檚 Graduate School of Psychology. She has taught undergraduate courses in psychology and world religions, directed the training program for master’s-level and doctoral-level counseling students at Pacific Lutheran University Counseling Services, and served as the director of the Counseling Center at PLU.

While Dr. Barton has worked in a variety of mental health settings, her passion is engaging emerging adults in meaningful therapy and investing in the development, training, and mentoring of the next generation of deeply human and present clinicians. We鈥檙e excited about the gifts and talents she brings to our faculty and we look forward to growing together with her in our relational community.

Board Games & Mental Health Conversations

Check out the Board Games & Mental Health series on channel with Dr. Paul Hoard, Dr. Jermaine Ma, and Paul Steinke MACS ’05, MACP ’23. Take a look at the latest . The series began with , posted earlier in 2024.

Faculty Publications & Presentations

• Dr. Joyce del Rosario, Adjunct Faculty, has a chapter in the new book .
• See the Alumni News section for Dr. Lauren Sawyer’s presentation at the American Psychological Association Convention in Seattle this summer.
• See the Alumni News section for Dr. Doug Shirley’s publication in the AMHCA’s The Advocate.

Center for Transforming Engagement News

• Looking for a personal growth opportunity this fall with the support of a community? offer a unique, transformative journey of personal growth, connection, and resilience. This fall, we鈥檙e excited to also add . All are welcome for our new round of led by Dr. Rose Madrid Swetman.
  
• Listen to the latest season of Transforming Engagement: the Podcast! This season, we鈥檙e focusing on Women in Ministry with a wise, gifted, diverse group of women leaders. We hope you鈥檒l find these conversations inspiring and practical鈥攚hether you are a woman in ministry, a leader from any marginalized background, or if you鈥檙e passionate about empowering all of God鈥檚 people to lead and serve in the ministry they feel called to. Listen on , , or
• Coming up this fall: Transforming Communities Workshops for teams and coaches! Transforming Communities workshops aim to help congregations and organizations understand their local context, and match their organization鈥檚 strengths to the needs and opportunities of the community in order to design relevant projects that create meaningful impact. on workshop offerings and how to get enrolled!听

The Allender Center News

• Explore Online Courses: Fall is the perfect time to continue your journey of learning and growth. We invite you to explore our library of signature Online Courses from the Allender Center, thoughtfully designed to help you navigate the complex issues of trauma and abuse at your own pace. Whether you’re an individual seeking personal development or a leader looking to facilitate group learning, we offer group pricing and comprehensive leader guides to support your goals. Discover more at:
• Welcoming a new training cohort of Narrative Focused Trauma Care: This fall, we are thrilled to welcome our new training cohorts in Narrative Focused Trauma Care, Levels I, II, and III. This program is ideal for those looking to enrich their counseling practice or ministry work with advanced trauma care skills. We invite you to join us in Fall 2025 and take the next step in your professional journey. CEUs are included in this training. You can learn more about Narrative Focused Trauma Care Level I at

The Other Journal Updates

Check out for an exploration of Church from ableism and racism to mystical theology, stories, and poetry. Sign up to of The Other Journal where each month Editor-in-Chief Zac Settle shares insights and curated recommendations! For more access to each new issue and the archive, ! Check out our latest . The next issue drops in late November!

Community Links

• “How Am I Responsible?” Seminar offered by Paul Hoard, PhD and Earl Bland, PsyD. Find more 性视界rmation and register .
• Check out the :
• Alumni community audit voucher & reduced tuition: view the 2024-2025 course schedule and email academics@theseattleschool.edu for details and class availability.
• Interested in working at The Seattle School? Take a look at Current Openings.

Alumni Announcements & News

If you would like to place an announcement or share news in our upcoming quarterly alumni newsletter, please email Jocelyn Skillman at jskillman@theseattleschool.edu. Thank you!

The post Continuing Conversations September 2024 appeared first on The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology.

Each year, The Seattle School offers the Stanley Grenz Lecture Series to advance theological discourse as an expression of faith and service in honor of former Professor Stanley Grenz, a prolific Christian scholar with a pastoral heart and deep intellectual presence.

Womanist theologian and ordained minister Dr. Angela Parker joined The Seattle School on January 12, 2024 for a conversation on 鈥�America鈥檚 Failing Empire: A Womanist New Testament Response to Rising White Christian Nationalism.鈥� Examining scripture, theology, and psychoanalysis of the self, Dr. Parker argued that America鈥檚 failing empire clings to the deep narrative/story of White Christian Nationalism while ignoring the ways that the imago dei of God can be found in passages outside of traditional readings of scripture. A panel discussion followed where Dr. Parker was joined by Dr. Chelle Stearns, Associate Professor of Theology at The Seattle School from 2008-2023 and current Affiliate Faculty, and Dr. David Leong, Professor of Urban & Intercultural Ministry at Seattle Pacific University.听

More about Dr. Parker: Angela N. Parker, PhD, (Chicago Theological Seminary) is Assistant Professor of New Testament and Greek at Mercer University鈥檚 McAfee School of Theology. Prior to her doctoral studies, she received a B.A. from Shaw University and an M.T.S. from Duke Divinity School. In 2018, Parker鈥檚 article, 鈥淥ne Womanist鈥檚 View of Racial Reconciliation in Galatians,鈥� earned second place in the Journal of Feminist Studies in Religion鈥檚 Elizabeth Sch眉ssler Fiorenza New Scholar Award, and in 2023 she published If God Still Breathes, Why Can鈥檛 I?: Black Lives Matter and Biblical Authority (Eerdmans). Parker is ordained with the Missionary Baptist Association of North Carolina and can be found on YouTube and TikTok @BoozyBibleScholar.

Transcript

Dr. J. Derek McNeil:
Good afternoon. Well, first, before I get started, did someone lose their cap? Anyway, it will be probably on this first row if you see somebody asking about a cap. Okay. First of all, it’s my pleasure to welcome you this afternoon evening to the Stanley Grenz Lectureship Series. How many years it say that I look at Chelle and ask how many years has this been?

Dr. J. Derek McNeil:
2011, 2013, somewhere in there. We do this lectureship series to remind us that theology is important in the cultural context. We’ve had a little bit of a season where theology is thought to be maybe irrelevant. I think we’re going to have a season where theology is known to be necessary.

So in this crisis of meaning space as people, some people will call it, or a moment of potential collapse, asking bigger questions is essential. And so our hope is to stimulate a conversation of bigger questions. Now, also to the other sort of thing that’s striking is鈥搘e’ve lost the idea of what discourse means. We no longer can hear. Now, as a person trained as a psychologist, I can know we can shut your capacity. Your brain can shut down with how much stimuli that’s threatening to you, lose your capacity to process. Well, it’s a strange thing to watch society lose capacity to process, which means we’re not learning. That’s frightening for me as a person to teacher. And so part of the challenge for you and for us in this context where learning is lessened and threat is louder, and most of our moments are reactive. We like to have this space of discourse, a space of conversation. So for Stanley Grenz, who is a prolific Christian style with a pastoral heart and a deep intellectual presence, it’s his memory. Each year, The Seattle School hosts a theological leader and thinkers to advance theological discourse. Dr. Angela Parker, my friend鈥揫audience cheers]

Dr. J. Derek McNeil:
I had the pleasure of being her boss for a little while, is our guest lecturer for this year, she will be presenting on 鈥淎merica’s Falling Empire: A Womanist New Testament Response to Rising White Christian Nationalism.鈥� She wants to examine scripture, theology, and psychoanalysis itself. Dr. Parker will argue that America’s Falling Empire clings to the deep narrative story of White Christian Nationalism while ignoring the ways that the image of God can be found in passages outside of traditional readings of scripture. Just for bio, because in some ways it’s easy to be saying, this is my friend, but let me give her her due. Dr. Angela Parker received her PhD from Chicago Theological Seminary and is Assistant Professor of New Testament in Greek studies at Mercer University, McAfee School of Theology. And prior to her doctoral studies, she received a BA from Shaw University, an MTS from Duke Divinity School. And in 2018, excuse me, 2018, Dr. Parker’s article on 鈥淥ne Womanist鈥檚 View of Racial Reconciliation in Galatians鈥� earned second place in the Journal of Feminist Studies in Religion鈥檚 Elizabeth Sch眉ssler Fiorenza New Scholar Award. And in 2023 she published, If God Still Breathes, Why Can’t I? Black Lives Matter and Biblical Authority by Eerdmans. Dr. Parker is ordained with the Missionary Baptist Association of North Carolina. And so in a minute I’ll ask you to welcome her, but I want to introduce you to our other guests. They’ll be joining her on a panel after she presents: Dr. David Leong [applause] holds a degree from Fuller Theological Seminary, is a Professor of Urban Ministry and Intercultural Studies at Seattle Pacific University and Seminary. His latest book, Race and Place: How Urban Geography Shapes the Journey to Reconciliation, explores themes of exclusion and belonging in Urban Context. David and his family live in southeast Seattle where they enjoy local parks, endless coffee selections, and the best spa in the city. I think you took my wife on a tour. That’s what it was. And I think I heard about the tour you took you took my wife on. My sister Dr. Chelle Stearns. She received her doctoral degree from the University of St. Andrews in Scotland. She served as Associate Professor of Theology at The Seattle School from 2008 to 2023 and now serves as Affiliate Faculty. She’s the author of Handling Dissonance, A Musical Theological Aesthetic of Unity, and has published essays on subjects such as trauma and Christology, music and trauma, and Pneumatology and the arts. Her current research and writings are at the intersection of theology, music, and trauma. We welcome you both when she finishes her presentation to us, but I simply want say, I think I texted you and said, Hey, would you do this? I got that casual. I simply texted and she said, Yes. Right away.

Dr. Angela Parker:
I was like, of course.

Dr. J. Derek McNeil:
You did say something like, of course. And I thought, oh, I wonder if she鈥檒l… Well, I didn’t have to do any talking answer, but she is a wonderful creative mind and loves the text. And so for a person, it would tend to sometimes assume that modern day revolutionaries, they want to discard the text. And I’ve watched Angela go deeper into the text. And in some ways it reminds us that our reading of the text is culturally 性视界rmed influenced, which means we’re not always reading the text just because we think we know what it’s said. And so I’ve appreciated her work to say, no, go deeper, understand that context to help you understand your context. And so we invite you to share with us the gifts that you are and the blessing you are to us. Welcome, Dr. Parker.

Dr. Angela Parker:
Oh, I have to turn on my mic. Thank you. That’s helpful. No, it’s on. It’s on. It’s on. All right. Austin got me. Good. It’s on. I don’t have to do anything. So, first of all, friends, may God be with you and

[Audience Response: And also with you]

You let us pray. Gracious God, we thank you for this day. We thank you for life, health and strength. We thank you for allowing us to gather for this Stanley Grenz lecture, a noted theologian, but also lover of the biblical text. And we thank you for just allowing us to come together in order to discuss difficult topics, but difficult topics that need to be discussed in today’s day and age that are important for our livelihood that are important just for the flourishing of our lives. So we thank you for this opportunity. We thank you for The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology, a place that helped me begin to think about those intersections of viable theology, psychoanalysis, and what they can look like out in the world. Allow this place to continue to be just that, a place of integration, a place of conversation, a place where even when we’re wrestling, we know that we are alive and flourishing and doing what you have called us to do. So we thank you when we praise you in Jesus鈥� name. I pray even as others come to you by the name that you have revealed yourself to them. Amen.

So I have the task of speaking to you this evening about America’s Failing, Falling鈥揂nd it’s funny, I did go back and forth between failing and falling empire. So I think we probably could say failing/ falling鈥揈mpire, A Womanist New Testament Response to Rising White Christian Nationalism. I want to ground us by just introducing this particular quote from Samuel Perry and Philip Gorski. It’s from their book entitled The Flag and the Cross. And in this quote, they saved us. They say that White Christian Nationalism’s deep story goes something like this. America was founded as a Christian nation by white men who were traditional Christians who based the nation’s founding documents on Christian principles. The United States is blessed by God, which is why it has been so successful. And the nation has a special role to play in God’s plan for humanity. But these blessings are threatened by cultural degradation from un-American influences both inside and outside our border.

Hence the deep story of White Christian Nationalism. I think it’s interesting for me, particularly coming back to The Seattle School, knowing that the original name of The Seattle School is Mars Hill something, something. And by that time we had folks like the Driscolls, the Mark Driscolls of the world, the angry white men who are just still pounding some kind of Christianity that I don’t recognize. And so you have an institution that’s always re-imagining who we are. I still count myself as part of you who we are in the midst of the day and age that we live in. So fast forward to 2019, I go to Mercer University’s McAfee School of Theology, and I’ve said this to my colleagues, which is probably why they’re not as kind as my Seattle School colleagues. No, but I said something like, as Baptists who started a school after the Southern Baptist Convention traditional takeover of Baptist seminaries, and you’ve come out of that and you started this institution, you are still trying to figure out who you are.

And it’s funny because, and I think Derek always recognizes this in me, I’m always going places and asking people: Who are you really? Who are you really? Or who are you trying to pretend to be? What does it mean to really understand and identify yourself?And institutions just like people are trying to understand and identify themselves? So I think about my foray into theological education and realize that just as institutions are trying to figure out themselves, we can read biblical texts and see that oftentimes the people in the text are trying to figure out themselves as well.

So, boom, oh, he told me to turn it on. Okay, that works down there. There we go. So you have the abstract. You don’t need me to talk like that. But how did, okay, now I hit too much. There we go. We’re getting there. Go back. Go back. There we go. So how do we begin to understand the deep story? Talked about the Mark Driscolls of the world, but I think in order to understand the deep story of White Christian Nationalism, some of the other folks that we need to be aware of are folks like Pamela Cooper White. So in Pamela Cooper’s White, The Psychology of Christian Nationalism, she talks about how White Christian Nationalism kind of had this deep story that Samuel Perry and Philip Gorski talked about. But in that deep story that meant that only someone like a Donald Trump would stop the鈥漧ine cutters鈥� who had been helped by elites like a Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton, that there became this assumption that white folks became strangers in their own land. And I’m trying to argue that an invitation into the deeper story of Jesus from my own particular Womanist New Testament scholarship helps us to argue against the deep story of White Christian Nationalism that if I’m actually truthful with myself, that story does not actually resemble the Jesus that I see in the text. And here’s going to be the kicker. This means that we are going to have to think about Jesus even differently. And that’s one of the things, and I feel it even as I remember teaching in this classroom.

What do you mean you want me to think differently about my Jesus? Don’t you know, it’s my Jesus that I take out of my pocket and offer to people when I’m in the grocery store? Don’t make me think differently about my Jesus. But I think if we take the gospel writer and I’m specifically going through the gospel of Matthew, if we take the gospel writer seriously, then we have to wrestle with these similar conversations that we find within the biblical text that I think we should be having outside of the biblical text. So what you hear me advocating for is understanding Jesus slightly differently so that we can understand one another slightly differently. That’s what I’m trying to get us to begin to think about. So in my own work, If God Still Breathes, Why Can鈥檛 I? Black Lives Matter and Biblical Authority, I argue that part of the narrative of white Christianity actually comes from, very good, a whole bunch of German scholarship that鈥檚 steeped in Eurocentric thinking.

So I talk about how when I was learning to be a biblical scholar, my professors were telling me to ask the proper questions, the proper questions that were set up by a Rudolph Boltman or a GWF Hegel or Epstein Bauer or Heidegger. A lot of us who have been trained in biblical scholarship, and I would also argue even in theological studies, and here’s, let me say this, there is a difference between biblical studies and theological studies. I am a biblical scholar. That means that I’m tied to the text. Dr. Stearns is a theologian. She goes into 20th-century theology and I’m just like, Ooh, no.

I am like, let me read this text and tell you all how you got theology wrong. That’s what I do. But I have to recognize that a lot of my training has been steeped in GWF Hegel who famously said that only Aryan nations have pure culture. That those Africans, those Orientals, those Jewish nations, those were enslaved nations and they had nothing to add to the culture of the globe. So you hear about Hegel and Hegel talks about how the spirit or the geist is within the world and cultures change and shift, but it’s only those Eurocentric nations that actually gave anything good. All those others, they did nothing. And so why is this important? I’ll tell you why. When they read Jesus, they read Jesus as white masculinity and then they go out and they colonize other nations and they present Jesus as white masculinity, Jesus as the universal male, Paul as the universal man.

So if you read someone like a Peter in the scholarship, Paul becomes universal white male. Peter becomes that backwater Jewish representative. And so you get this idea of antisemitism by ignoring Paul’s Jewishness, you get antisemitism by also ignoring Jesus’s Jewishness. And that leads to reading Jesus just like them. And so my biblical scholar professors were trying to make me read Jesus like that. How is that even possible? Alright, it’s not. So I go through and I talk about how Hegel and all the others just begin to talk really horrible about the other nations. And what Pamela Cooper White does is she connects some of these conversations to what becomes understood as nationalism, meaning German biblical scholars such as Heidegger, a card-carrying Nazi member until World War II. They were also steeped in this idea of nationalism, this patriotic way of understanding your nation and connecting it to your Christianity. And so when we see in Charlottesville white men in Dockers [pants] with tiki torches talking about the Jews will not replace us, a lot of that comes from this particular Euro-centric worldview. Alright? And so that’s what infiltrates into our readings of biblical text. So then what happens? How do we begin to get out of it? We have to get out of it in some way. I’m going to go first to Matthew chapter one. So Matthew chapter one, you have the infant narrative of Jesus. How many of you actually read Bible and like it?

Okay, there’s one over there. Good, I got a few. So I’m thinking, I’m also wondering, is this the first time a biblical scholar has done a Grenz lecture? Okay, Dr. Chelle is shaking her head yes, I’ll go with that. Because oftentimes we think we know the text. We say we know the text. If you’ve ever taken a class with me, I say that you cannot say: that’s what the Bible says. Thank you. I’m so happy I can look at folks and they know what to say. You can’t say that when you are around me because the Bible is thousands of years of a collection of books that had been put together. I鈥檝e often said they did not come down from God written in God’s pen to the earth like floating on a spirit. No, that’s not what happened. There were people who were trying to figure out their relationship to the Almighty.

So you have to realize that this compending of books are different people talking about their relationship to the Almighty as they’re talking about navigating their relationship with other people. And oftentimes those other people were nations that were over them. Why do you think we had to learn about the Assyrians and the Babylonians and the Romans? Because they were trying to navigate: oh my God, these people are oppressive over us and we have some kind of promises from God, but I don’t know how we’re supposed to work all this out. What are we supposed to do in the midst of this? So now that鈥檚 what we’re reading, we’re reading other people’s relationship with God, not to get a one-to-one correspondence for our relationship to God, but just to see how they navigated it and perhaps, just perhaps, you know what? I am very much aware of the blessed Holy Spirit that can tell us things in the midst of reading that Bible, but not that one-to-one corresponds to this is my relationship with God.

No, it’s different. We have to nuance it and we have to interpret it. It’s not a self-interpreting book. Alright, so Matthew chapter one, [reads in biblical text] the beginning, the genesis of the book of Jesus, Christ son of David, son of Abraham. So you get this genealogy. Abraham begets Isaac. Isaac begets Yakob, Yakob begets Budha and his brother [reads in Greek]. Alright, first person that you need to know because you get there, Tamar, Tamar, Tamar. Rembrandt picture top left Tamar Tamar, she is the daughter-in-law of Judah according to Genesis 38. And as the daughter-in-law of Judah, she has a husband who’s Judah’s son. He dies. Judah gives Onan the next child to Tamar. She’s supposed to get pregnant by him. Onan spills his seed on the ground, God strikes him dead. Tamar of course was like, okay, I need another boy. And Judah’s like, Hey, no, just go in your mother’s house and wait until the youngest one grows up and then maybe I’ll give him to you.

She is like, oh no, that’s not going to work. She takes off her widow’s clothes, she goes and she sits and she’s looking like a prostitute. Judah sees her as a prostitute at the gate, says, come on, let’s go do the do, she becomes pregnant with twins. And he’s like, oh my goodness. In Rembrandt, her head is covered. So somehow he doesn’t know it’s her. They have sex, she’s pregnant. She is now 鈥渄isgraced herself鈥� because she’s pregnant and they don’t know how she can getting pregnant. And so he’s like, oh, I can get rid of her, prepare the fire, I can kill her. Oh, give me. And she says, go ahead, prepare the fire, but I need you to know that I’m pregnant by the man who these belong to and it’s his signet ring and his rod. And he is like, oh hell.

Dr. Angela Parker:
Well, that changes things. And he actually says in the text that she is more just than he is because she took matters into her own hands. So you get Tamar named in the genealogy of Jesus and you’re like, oh, that’s odd. Because normally women are not named in genealogies, it’s just the men. And so they actually pushed somebody out there. So naming women, weird practice, but note they name Tamar, they name Rahab. Rahab. Look at Joshua, brothel owner or prostitute, Hebrew Bible scholars, they kind of tussled with that. Ruth, oh wait, Tamar, Ruth, Rahab. Cannanite Ruth, you know the Ruth story where Naomi says, where Naomi goes, Ruth is going to go, your people will be my people. We use that in marriage ceremonies. That’s the wrong text. Please.

See, we think we know Bible but we don’t. And then wife of Uriah, Bathsheba, the classic case of victim blaming I’ve ever seen in my life. Oh, Bathsheba. And I have a friend Cynthia, who teaches Bible. She also does archeology. So she goes and she looks at Israel, she talks about the topography of Israel. And she says David was on the roof. The text specifically said that David was on the roof, that she was in her house and she was doing a ritual cleansing, meaning she had just come off of her cycle and at that particular time she would be fertile. Now David, the peeping Tom that he was, looks in sees her, is like: Ooh, I want that. No idea of consent or an adulterous relationship. It’s the same thing as someone saying Sally Hemmings had an affair with Thomas Jefferson. Now it was rape, call it what it is. David raped Bathsheba. And so we get this woman named as wife of Uriah in the lineage of Jesus. And then finally Mary, the mother of Jesus who when she said, I’m pregnant by the Holy Spirit, as a teenage girl, they were like, Mary, get the heck out of here. So concluding with five sexually suspect women in the lineage of Jesus, not the Sarahs or the Rachels or Leahs, not the approved supposed matriarchs of Israel, but the suspect women. And so I’ve always read that. I’m like, why the suspect women? Why the suspect women? Why the suspect women?

I’m going to answer that question as I go to Matthew 15, because Matthew 15 I would argue has to be read in light of Matthew chapter one. And this is where we get into the deeper story of Jesus. So Matthew 15, [oh], you may have to do something. Austin. As Austin is doing whatever magic he’s doing, Matthew 15 verses 21 through 28. So going from someplace Jesus is going into now entering into the region of Tyre and Sidon and behold, a woman Cannanite, a woman Canaanite from the regions there, she’s coming in and she’s crying out [reads text in biblical language]. And she said, A Sunday, have mercy on me Lord, son of David, for my daughter is demon-possessed like evilly, horribly, it’s bad. And Jesus at verse 23 does not answer her a word.

[reads Biblical language text] she’s coming the disciples, they’re coming up behind him and they’re asking him, saying a, send her away because she’s crying after us, but there’s no Jesus. It’s just Jesus. Jesus says, I am not sent except to the sheep, specifically the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And she coming, so she coming does a bodily action, she falls down. I’m not getting, five years ago when I was teaching her, I would easily get on the ground, not today. She goes and she falls before Jesus and this bodily idea of worship, but worship where you also prostrating yourself. And it’s almost like you’re kissing the feet and the garments of that person that you are asking for help. And so she is doing all the things in order to get Jesus to change his mind. And she says, Lord, help me.

And he said, it is not good to give the loaf, the bread of the children and throw it, throw it to the dogs. But she said, nay Lord or aye Lord. But even the dogs eat from the crumbs that have fallen from the table of their masters. And Jesus said, oh woman, [reads biblical language text] this happens three times in the book of Matthew. Is this like your great faith? Not little. Usually we get ye of little faith, but we get this mega, this great faith鈥揹epart and as you wish, let it be done. And her daughter was healed from that hour. Alright, so that’s our story. And usually I often ask students, how has this text often been preached or taught to you?

How has this text often been preached or taught to you? And let me hear one answer. Oh my goodness. How is it often taught or preached to you? [Audience: Jesus was testing her.] Jesus was testing her. Jesus was growing her faith. Very John, Calvin, John Calvin reading this is saying, oh, this is the example of how we’re supposed to pray. You are persistent in your prayer no matter what. Well, I would argue something differently. I would argue that this woman is doing a multitude of things and we’re going to focus on the woman for a second. She’s crossing a border, she has crossed the border to get to Jesus and she’s crossing that border. And as she’s crossing that border, she identifies Jesus as son of David. So not only has the woman who is on the border of society crossed the boundary to get to Jesus, but she has also recognized and acknowledges Jesus’s identity and his royal lineage even though she is other.

So she’s other. Jesus is being callous. And when you look at the gospel of Mark chapter seven verses 24 through 30, somewhere in that range, you get the same story, but she’s called a Syro-Phoenecian woman. She’s not called a Canaanite woman. And so Jesus says not a word to her in Matthew 15:23, which does not appear in Mark chapter seven. Matthew, the Matthian writer makes Jesus even more callous. But it seems to me that as I read this text, Jesus is also doing something else. The Canaanite people who have a history for the Israel nation of being barbarian only worthy of death, a good Canaanite is a dead Canaanite for the Israelites. Just like a good N-word is a dead N-word for a lot of White Christian Nationalists. This woman is other. And why did I go back to Mark chapter one. Who is in Jesus’s genealogy? Canaanite other women. So what happens when you say you’re only come to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, but then you have to look in the face of the other and realize, oh my God, that person is me. So here’s the twist. Jesus is not just pushing her faith, but I would make the argument that if we really believe what the text says about Jesus being fully God and fully human and not just harp on the fully God part, but actually wrestle with the text where Jesus is fully human, we have to recognize that Jesus, even as he’s created in the image of God, has to go through what those of us who are created in the image of God go through, a progressive transformative, gradual moving of our own imago dei. And this is where the work of Stanley Grenz becomes important because Grenz argues that when you think about the imago dei of Jesus or the imago dei in connecting it to Jesus, he’s talking about we have to take seriously that Jesus is human and divine.

And that according to Western psychology, which is what Grenz loves to also think about, just as we have a self, we have an individual self, we have a relational self, we have a collective self. And some psychologists would say that for a lot of people, the most important self is the individual self. And then maybe when you started getting into relationships with other people, then that relational self sometimes takes over. But that collective self, from what I was reading, that collective self is the least developed self most of the times from what I read, you all can correct me in the Q and A if I’m wrong, but I think what we’re seeing here is that Jesus, moving away from only being for the lost sheep of the house of Israel actually moves into a deeper collective, I would say a deeper collectivity. And how do I know that?

Because the gospel writer has argued or stated that, in my view, 14, 13 through 21, Jesus feeds like 5,000 people. And that feeding, they take up 12 baskets of bread, 12 being the number of the house of Israel, 12 being the number of disciples that he calls or apostles that he calls that idea. And also in Mark 14, he’s in a land that is mostly Israel. He has the conversation with the Canaanite woman. He sees himself in her because she is the other. And then at Matthew 15:32 through 39, he has another feeding, but it’s in a more Gentile region because he’s still hanging with the people of Tyre and Sidon from Matthew 15. And so that feeding the gospel writer says that the leftovers that they took up were seven baskets. Now if you know anything about biblical numbers 12 representing the number of the house of Israel, seven representing men or more of a complete 性视界. And now you’ve seen Jesus’s 性视界 change from that individual Israel mindset to, oh my God, I am here for more people. That deeper story of Jesus is the invitation that I’m asking White Nationalists to think about. I am here for other people. I am not just here for you. So what does that invitation look like? It looks like an invitation to solidarity. I feel like I need to say more about Jesus. Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus.

I believe that Jesus comes away with a healed understanding of his own identity and he has a push toward a more inclusive ministry and 性视界. And I also think that in that healed understanding of his identity, when you read the gospel in its entirety, you also have to see that, I think Jesus also has a healed identity regarding masculinity and power, masculinity and power. How do I get that? If you go back to Matthew chapter eight, Matthew chapter eight, a Roman centurion asks Jesus to heal his enslaved person. Is a Roman centurion a part of the house of Israel? No, a Roman centurion is not a part of the house of Israel. But Jesus at that text says, sure, I’ll come. Let’s go heal your enslaved servants. But in 15 he says, I’m come only to the lost people of the house of Israel, basically ignoring that Canaanite woman.

So Jesus in the entirety of the gospel of Matthew, I think there’s that healing from wanting to be close to power, wanting to be in charge, wanting to be the man in the room who knows the answer to everything, wanting to be that person who knows everything. And if Jesus, the Jesus that we know as the Christ both human and divine has to have these conversations, I would argue within his own mind and within this text, why do we feel like we don’t have to have the same conversations today? [Oh yes] That’s where we’re going to. So how do we invite people into conversations like that? I don’t know. Lemme tell you, it’s hard as hell.

Plain and simple. For some reason I did it again, I’m sorry. For some reason back in Atlanta and other parts of the world, I’m invited to teach and preach in predominantly white spaces, white churches who love their Bible, love Jesus. And then they’re trying to figure out, well, where are we going wrong with our family and our friends who are Trumpites, our MAGA supporters who are putting forth this idea of making America great again, which is going back to some kind of 1950s idea of being America. And what I just try to do is invite them into a deeper story of Jesus. That’s the invitation. The invitation to explore such questions are not always easy. It is hard. You have folks like, oh, Georgia Representative Marjorie Taylor Green has called herself a proud Christian Nationalist and is trying to make that term more acceptable. So I would say that the deep story of Jesus has to ask these questions about how are we getting away from this? How are we getting to a posture that really takes a look at the history in which this country was founded? How do we not whitewash it? How do we begin to interrogate our own biases? That’s our second posture. How do we begin to realize that even if someone is loud and makes a lot of noise, that doesn’t mean you ignore them. Maybe perhaps you need to have a conversation with them in us and Jesus. And then the third posture, an invitation to not feel as though we’re astray within our own individual identity.

In a book, David Roediger wrote it, the book’s title is Working Toward Whiteness, Working Toward Whiteness that elite white society had shunned less than elite white society. And he really goes into talking about white folks understanding themselves as white trash, but the ways that political systems move them from white trash to at least you’re better than these other people, gave them an out from their straight status or their straight identity. The story of Jesus actually invites us to become more in solidarity of people, to have solidarity across identities and not coalesce around one particular tribe or group, specifically white identity. That’s what I’m trying to do as I imagine my life, my project, as a Womanist, new Testament Biblical scholar who’s just trying to make a difference wherever she finds herself. Thank you. [applause, standing ovation]

[end of lecture, transition to panel]

(00:44:55):
My colleagues will have our panel discussion as to what they heard and granted they read the, or had the opportunity to read the larger work that this is coming from. So there are things that I’ve probably skipped that they’ll be able to point out, [CS: 鈥渟till taking notes.鈥漖 What are you thinking? Going to drop my, oh, lemme say some other things to help. Please. One thing that’s interesting for me, even as I read the Canaanite woman, I was trying to focus more on Jesus because oftentimes we focus more on the Canaanite woman when we’re reading the text. But one thing that’s interesting about the difference between the Mark narrative and the Matthew narrative is that the Canaanite woman, as Mr. Dubay argues, internalizes Jesus’s racism. And so when you think about she’s agreeing with Jesus saying, yeah, I may be a dog, but at least the dogs eat under the table. She said essentially, yes, I’m a little dog. Or I think I put in the paper she was acknowledging that she’s a little bitch. Sorry, but I had to put it in the paper because come on. But it’s that internalized racism that we all kind of live in sometimes. So I forgot.

Dr. Chelle Stearns:
Thank you.

Dr. Angela Parker:
You’re welcome.

Dr. Chelle Stearns:
Yeah, I think the first thing that I’ll just speak for both of us in just saying thank you for coming. It’s delightful to have you. [applause]

Dr. Angela Parker:
Anytime.

Dr. Chelle Stearns:
To have Dr. Parker here is a delight. So yeah, I think the thing that really stood out to me when I was reading the paper was really that kind of sense of you read the genealogy and you connect it to these women, to the women within the gospel, and really kind of thinking back of how often even when we’re reading, we begin to erase others in order to get to a Jesus we’ve already preconceived. So we actually are reading poorly, but we think we’re reading some. [AP: Exactly.] And so I think that’s the thing that [AP: Awesome.] I think that’s the thing that really stood out to me. And so this question as a theologian, the question then becomes, so what is being revealed here? And you’re actually in some sense messing with this idea of the revelation of who this Jesus is.

I’m kind of thinking of the passage in Hebrews in the book of Hebrews where it’s kind of like that Jesus becomes perfected. There’s kind of this weird play on this idea of what does it mean for Jesus to actually perfect our faith or perfect our own humanity? And by Jesus embodying in this story something that in some ways expected of him and then is transformed in this moment in some ways by this woman kind of, I love the way you put it, of he begins to see who he is as a Canaanite. [AP:Exactly, exactly.] He begins to see his own identity as other and realizing, oh, there’s something more that’s happening here. There’s something more. If you want to talk about it as the imago dei as a theologian, I’d be like, what we’re seeing is the transformation of the Imago Christi or the image of Christ that we are called into as Christians, to become less the individual.

And he becomes the collective of how his whole being begins to pick up this collective identity and transform it. And therefore our call is not to the pre-Jesus before this encounter. We are called to the Jesus after this encounter. And the thing that’s probably hard for folks to even begin to talk about is the idea of a Jesus that changes because most of us have grown up with a Jesus the same today, tomorrow, forever, whatever. And that’s something that we can’t live in the cognitive dissonance of if we read the text well, and that’s the thing. So either you’re going to read the text well or you’re going to hold on to your preconceived notion of the Jesus that you’ve already always been taught or the Jesus that has been christologically formed in theological construction.

Dr. David Leong:
I guess I’ll share some similar thoughts while on the genealogy topic, which I think is obviously such an essential part of how we understand Jesus’ life and ministry yet so often overlooked. So I appreciate how in the paper today, just a reminder that Jesus’ mixed genealogy helps us to see this really critical role that foreigners and outsiders play. And it’s interesting how in so much of the modern development of racial ideology, how this notion of racial purity, this notion that people groups can maintain some kind of integrity is what creates all these racial hierarchies in the world. And even though we now have all of the DNA science that recognizes that if you send your DNA off to send it off to 23 and Me or ancestry.com, what have you, it is really illuminating. It reflects how all of us are quite mixed, and yet these myths of racial purity kind of persist.

But I think most of all, I think similarly, I appreciated this depiction of a Jesus who’s confronted with his own ethnocentrism and has to really reevaluate if his depiction of who belongs in the house of Israel is a wide enough picture of the scope of God’s activity. So I think similar to what you were just saying, I think it’s wonderful to have the text open up the humanity of Jesus in new ways. And I think rather, while that is a, I think growing up I grew up as a Southern Baptist biblicist so I can identify with some of the ways that fixes Jesus’ persona in our minds. And so while it’s maybe a little scary to think about a fully human Jesus who is, as he’s teaching, as he’s performing miracles, as he’s living in the world, is also having to ask hard questions about whether the God that he serves, whether they’re on the same page quickly. I can see how that could be maybe threatening to some or how that kind of disturbs our level of comfort with the text. But I really love the way you opened it up to say that really this is an invitation into the mystery of God, the mystery of the incarnation of the dual nature of God. And so I don’t know, that’s something I hold onto saying that uncertainty, that dynamic nature of seeing Jesus or doesn’t have to be a threat to the authority of scripture, in fact reflects all of its beauty and complexities. I appreciate that.

Dr. Angela Parker:
And I appreciate that. And that’s exactly what I’m trying to do because when I think about how people respond to if God’s who reads, and I’m asking the questions around inerrancy and infallibility and connecting them to white supremacist thought, that’s even difficult for people to begin to wrap their minds around because it’s like, wait, no, this is just the way it’s always been. And I’m like, no, it’s not the way it’s always been. There has been an evolution of the doctrines of an errancy and infallibility that actually moves to the person who’s doing the interpretation or the person who’s doing the preaching in the congregation. So it’s kind of like the same thing almost in my brain because being able to wrestle with a Jesus who is wrestling with his own ethnocentricity gives an example of white supremacy that has to wrestle with their own ethnocentricity. And to put that in front of people, that’s hard because why do we have to do that? And I’m like, well, it’s going to benefit me and my grandchildren, so I’m going to push you no matter what. And that may be selfish, but here’s the thing where it’s not selfish. I think those who wrestle with it will actually be better.

I often ask in a class context, what salvation do white men need? And I’m not talking all white men, please don’t hear that. But there is a type of liberation from the belief that one knows everything, that this particular identity should have all of the answers. And I’ve never grown up with the luxury of being looked upon as the person who had all the answers. So I can live in that. I don’t know. I can live in the mystery of, okay, Jesus God, man, okay, Jesus in Hebrews being perfected, okay, Jesus in Matthew doing something different. Okay, Jesus and John being completely masculine and taking care of business from the cross. Okay. Can I just live in all of that and not have to have mastery and control over it? Can I just read it and engage it? And it’s funny because you’re in a place where you’re getting a master’s degree, but you really don’t get mastery and control over it. And we’re never supposed to get mastery and control over it. And that’s where we’re trying to live. So I think that’s where salvation comes from, those for those who think that they’re always supposed to have mastery and control.

Dr. David Leong:
Can I ask a follow up? [AP: Yeah]. Since I hear a little Willie Jennings, oh,

Dr. Angela Parker:
Of course.

Dr. David Leong:
I think this is for all of us in perhaps in the room a little bit to think about. In my experience, Christian Nationalists have a hard time seeing the Whiteness in their nationalism, especially maybe the deeper story. It’s a very 鈥� forgive the pun 鈥� skin- deep racial analysis. And I know that among academics and among a lot of theologians, whiteness is a very common, very popular area of discourse, rightfully so. Given all the sort of Eurocentric history that you went over a little bit, I sometimes just wonder as maybe a pragmatist or as one wanting to have conversations outside spaces like this. [AP: Yes.] How do we talk about whiteness in the way that Jennings does as a way of seeing the world as a cultural hermeneutic, as a way of embodying our lives through maybe demonstration, things like master possession control, but how do we do that in a way that doesn’t just sort of reinstantiate the polarizing ways that people are thinking, like the Fox News-ification of racial politics? And I ask that for, I mean, even in my own family, there are people, they wouldn’t call it Christian nationalism, but they’re living inside that narrative deeply. And I want to be able to kind touch on some of those things. But I fear that as we talk about whiteness, it’s not having the same effect when I’m reading a journal article and presenting a paper. Do you know what I mean? How do I translate that? How do you translate that for browns?

Dr. Angela Parker:
So usually I am in a church preaching and I’ll preach something I’ll preach by Philemon. And so I’m preaching Philemon and making it connected to the 1619 project and saying, so what does Jesus want us to do in this moment? It’s not a come to Jesus accept Jesus’ Lord and Savior, because usually I’m preaching in churches where probably everybody’s been the member for 50 years. And so I’m like, okay, let’s read this text and read it differently. And usually no matter what, after I’m done preaching, I’ll have someone come to me, shake my hand earnestly and say, thank you for that word, preacher, but I don’t speak color. I’m colorblind.

And it’s that moment for me to have that conversation with that well-meaning person that says something like this. I know that a lot of liberals have put forth this idea of colorblind mentality that if we just ignore race and just treat each other the way we think Dr. Martin Luther King said about, I want my children to be received on the content of their character, not the color of their skin. See, it’s amazing to me, that’s the one thing white folks can quote from that opinion. I’m just like, is that the only thing that he said? No, but when we think about that language of colorblindness, you鈥檙e usually ignoring 400 years of history that comes with me when I enter into a room. And that’s what I’ll tell any parishioner. I’ll say, you’re looking at me and you’re telling me you don’t see color. So you don’t see my grandmother who was raped off of her land.

You don’t see my great-grandmother who was an enslaved person. You don’t see what it means to live in Jim Crow South. You don’t see all of the things that are part of the history behind me. And truth be told, you don’t see the history that you bring into this room either. So you’re trying to ignore my history and you’re also ignoring the history of how you even became colorblind and white. I mean, you weren’t White when you came here. You were Italian, you were German, you were Scottish, you were Swedish, and you’ve lost all of that. And so that language of colorblindness actually means that there’s so much more that we lose instead of gaining. And that’s a sit down conversation that has to occur all the time. But I find it fruitful, especially after I preach, and it’s not the academic conversations, it’s the sitting at the tables after a church service and having, I don’t know. Well, last time I went to the church, they made ribs. So that’s a great question.

Dr. Chelle Stearns:
Not quite bad church coffee and stale bagels. I yet, okay. I mean, I would definitely open things up. I think one of the things that I find challenging in this conversation is in some sense, yeah, going back home, what are the conversations we have when we’re with our family or I was working, I spent a lot of time in Canada this last summer working with an artist, and I had done a conference with her, Erica Grimm. She’s amazing. Hey Erica, have you watched this? And one of the things that she really challenged me was to go, so one of the things we wanted to start with was not only doing a land acknowledgement from the place where we were doing our conference, but to think through what was the land acknowledgement from where I grew up and from Seattle. And from there we began to go and what’s the story of the watershed that is there or is no longer there?

So it began this kind of journey of asking the question of the stories that have been lost. So I really love, you don’t see all the things in which I am connected to my ancestors. You don’t see all the ways in which I’m connected to the land. You don’t see. And in that the privilege of whiteness is that we don’t have to tell the story. The story I keep getting is, oh, well, I have nothing to do with that. It’s not actually my story. So where I am from just to do a short land acknowledgement, I’m from the Rogue River Valley where I was actually born, and I’m doing this off the top of my head, so I’m like, I’m losing the name of the tribe, but there’s a small tribe from the region on the Rogue River that I am from that was 10,000 strong before the settlers came.

They were all over the entire Rogue River Valley from eastern Oregon to the ocean, and there they were. And then the gold came, and a state that purposely wanted to be white supremacist. And they came and they basically erased. There are now 70 people left of that tribe. They’re not in their land. They are somewhere up north on a small disputed鈥搕hey’re not actually acknowledged as a tribe anymore. So they have no rights or privileges to land anywhere. And so I have privilege because my parents live there and they own land, and that I can go back whenever I want and I have value and money kind of invested in this land. And it is somehow mine where this tribe that went back thousands of years in an area that is rich and wonderful is now 70 people and they don’t know their own language.

And so I’m like, the more I can wrestle with that story as actually this is not someone else’s story, this is my story now. This is part of my bias is that I have this huge blind spot because I don’t know how to tell the story well. And I’m like, I’m in my fifties, but I had never heard the story. I didn’t know that most of the tribe died because they made them walk up north in northern Oregon. I didn’t know there was a trail of tears in the state of Oregon. So there’s things like that of even you go, well, that’s a pretty simple thing. But I’m like, when I went to go look for the story, when I went to go look for land acknowledgements from where I come from, they were non-existent. Southern Oregon State University over in Ashland had something.

But then I go, so this is the problem. We stop telling the story and we think that has nothing to do with us, and yet we lose part of ourselves in the process. So I think that, I mean that’s in some ways how I’ve, it’s like the slow long work of the restoring of land, the restoring of my own life, my own body, my own family. And to realize that to be white is in some sense this collective of erasure of almost everyone else.

Dr. Angela Parker:
That’s a good answer. That’s a good way to think about it. I mean, that’s why we’re such good friends. I think I want to take this time to at least prompt you all who have questions to begin to think about your questions, you push back, what I left out that probably needs to be said. And I do want to make sure that those identifiably who identify as students or other students have an opportunity to address question pose before, you know what usually happens. I was trying to be nice. Anything that you want anything about,

Audience:
If I could,

Dr. Angela Parker:
So it’s all clear as mud. Oh, thank you. You want to do that set? Alright. Thank you

Audience:
Dr. Parker. Let us know who you want us to the link to. Sure.

Dr. Ron Ruthruff:
I have a question.

Dr. Angela Parker:
Oh, Ron, I’m going to take personal privilege and stay. Wait. Oh yeah, I’ll come back to him. I’ll go first real right here because I’m trying to make sure I’m not overlooking anyone, but I do want to, especially those who just added this semester.

Audience member:
Dr. Parker, thank you so much for being with us for your time. I think when we talk about White Christian Nationalism, we can talk about that without talking about the concept of borders. And you brought up borders a bit with when we coming to cross border, and I’m wondering if you can speak just a little bit to the concept of borders and give a response to people who maybe are build-thewall type or who advocate so strongly for a holding of a border. I love just what you already brought up with the crossing border. Come see Jesus. Can you speak more to borders?

Dr. Angela Parker:
Yeah, sure. I don’t think we’ve realized how much borders, how many times we put up borders and boundaries, that just even thinking about the separation between sacred and secular and the separation between church and politics, that we have these imaginary borders that really our faith is hell. And even though that Canaanite woman was crossing the border from Tyre and Sidon and getting to Jesus, I even think that that border is quite imaginary as well. What am I saying?

When you look at the topography of Israel and you look at Palestine and you see that Jesus and the disciples would’ve been able to look across rivers and across the sea of Galilee, sea, the Capernaum Sea, sea of Galilee, dead sea, okay. Sea of Galilee. And to see the ways that the folks at Tyre and Sidon lived that there was a more porous, permeable border. It’s not as hard and fixed as we think. And I think even when we talk about borders in the United States of America, they’re not as hard and fixed as we think, because essentially Mexico owned what most of Texas beforehand. And we don’t realize or go back to that history and say, wait, we were already mixed up anyway. And I think Jesus is seeing that that woman was already mixed up within him anyway. And I think that as we imagine the folks who have the ability to make policy that number one, we should not be living in this age of scarcity.

If we really took seriously that those who had more should perhaps pay more, then we wouldn’t be living in the scarcity. And that’s another issue of humanit鈥� that those who are hoarding can look at another person and say, oh no, I need it for me. I don’t recognize you and this is all mine, my mind, my mine. It’s like the 3-year-old and can’t even imagine what it means to have others who come in and just want to first of all have peace, not dodge bullets in their home nation, not running from political imprisonment in their home nation, to actually seek amnesty. It was interesting. I just started watching The Good Place and when they start talking about no one will ever close borders, no one would ever not allow amnesty for other people. And I’m like, oh, well we are, we have completely, our moral code has just completely changed.

And I don’t know, that’s just my weird thoughts on more why immigration. But I think that there’s something even within the biblical text that says, open up to more, not to less. I think that’s the morality within the biblical text, open up to more and not less. And so the Mike Johnsons of the world who say, I read my Bible and my Bible is my biblical worldview鈥搕hat was bad鈥揵ut that’s what we’re arguing against, that you are a biblical worldview is actually culturally White Christian Nationalist. It’s not actually your 鈥渂iblical world view.鈥� Okay. Rochelle,

Audience member:
Dr. Parker, I have an analogy of a phone conversation where you can’t tell by the tone of someone’s voice what color they are or what nationality they are. And then something happens in a face-to-face or in a change or in a dissonance that makes the world smaller. And you just talked about expanding, and I wonder what your thoughts are around an inability to see a divine or a sacred in another person that would increase the humanity and expand a vision and an interpretation of God rather than create a defensiveness that shrinks everything.

Dr. Angela Parker:
A vision of expansion, a vision of expansion, a vision of expansion. Oftentimes when we think about again, God, and now even Jesus, we are so hung up with the idea of never changing and I’m talking about God and Jesus never changing. And I wonder if we really think about the expansiveness of God and the idea of Jesus being transformed in some way, that we can make that connection to a change in transform of other people. That we tend to look at someone. Alright, don’t psychologists say that if you like someone within the first 10 seconds of meeting them. Oftentimes that’s what y’all say, but you get to know someone and you begin to understand, oh, they’re deeper than I thought they were, or there’s more to them than I gave them credit for.

I think that our relationship with God and the divine, if we have that small relationship with God, I think we also tend to have that small relationship with other people. And so I would argue that a larger relationship with God can give us a larger relationship with other people. I need to write that book too, remind me of these words. [comment from audience] Oh that鈥檚 funny. But I appreciate that, Michelle. And I think that’s the problem with White Christian Nationalism too. So small. So small.

Dr. Chelle Stearns:
Even just to maybe push this a little bit is kind of the sense of you think that you are getting power. I think this is the lies of the construction of whiteness. You think you’re getting power, you think that you’re even expanding, and actually you’re limiting. It’s like you’re seeing the small vision of power or you’re seeing the small vision of what could be. And instead it’s like God keeps blowing open these perspectives and like, well, Jesus does it all the time in the gospels. I love how you said, talked about Peter or Paul over Peter and going, I have to sit with that for a long time. Yes.

Dr. Angela Parker:
And then we’ll go to Ron Ruthruff. We’ll do.

Audience member:
Yeah. Dr. Parker, during your lecture you spoke of solidarity and as I’m reflecting on my own personal experiences with people from different communities, maybe a little more commonly with some white cousins, but that the solidarity can sometimes when some people tend to look more like ripping on other white people. And the meaning I make of that ends up looking a little bit more like a form of self-hatred, I think, than it does like a lot of other communities for other people. And so the question that I have then is, from your discipline, from looking at Jesus, you have more, can you give us more to go off of I against, what is it true and better solidarity actually look like that we can work with.

Dr. Angela Parker:
What does a true and better solidarity look like that we can actually work with? I have to acknowledge that for me, I’m in a field that I am 5% of the field. So no matter what, I have to look for allies and people to be in solidarity with because I will never be the constituency that has the most power in my field, which means that I have to be careful. And I always have to say, I have white guy friends that I’ve written with. We publish together. So because especially with students, students will look at me and they’re so afraid. I’m like, dude, calm down.

That as a minoritized person in the country, I have to find ways of solidarity and allyship that can be reciprocal. And when I have the capacity to not rip on white folks, that’s not the point. But when I have the capacity for my friends who say, can you explain to me why my colleague over here may be upset with something that I’ve just said? And if I have the capacity and I’m listening to the conversation, I can say, oh, well yeah, you were racially microaggressive them when you said blah, blah, blah, blah. So I have to live in that allyship of being a sounding board, even if it’s I have to be quiet and not, so I have to be like the Canaanite woman. Sometimes I can scream, but sometimes I also have to be like, just this is what you said and this is why it was offensive and this is why she felt my whole rest. But then I have to also be able to receive from them. So I think it’s a give and take in all relationships, but also I need my white allies and colleagues to know that I can’t be the only sounding board for you because I get tired.[applause]

Just can’t do it all the time. So you have to respect when I say I’m not at capacity to do this right now, I can’t. And it has to be any kind of relationship that we’re all constantly coming together or coming apart, coming together, coming apart, coming together, coming apart. That’s the only way I can think about it. I don’t have the power to do anything big and large. I just have the power to be in personal relationships. Question and then question.

Dr. Ron Ruthruff (faculty):
Dr. Parker, thank you so much. [laughter] You gave me per性视界. I’m go, I did one. Maybe this is another book you need to write, but I loved thank you and thank you Dr. Stearns and Dr. Leong. It was a gift to hear all three of you. And I love this image of the present transformation of Jesus in the text. The actual fact that Jesus is being changed and the humanness of him is sort of being attentive to things in his own life that needs to move and moving towards this perfected state in a very human-becoming sort of way. I love that. I think it’s such a great conversation piece when I think about my white family and my white friends. And I was just going to ask you, this can’t be the only place in the text that it happens. There has to be other stories where Jesus is being transformed. If this is sort of a theological theme in the gospels, and so I don’t want to put you on the spot, but I want to say, I would love for you to think about it or our panelists to think about where else could we go in the text to see Jesus’s invitation to be transformed. And that’s how I look at it. He’s inviting me to be changed in his own transformation. Are there other places we could go?

Dr. Angela Parker:
So one thing that’s coming to my mind immediately, I had the opportunity to record content with . So if you don’t follow The Bible for Normal People, so over the next year you’ll see things that I recorded in one freaking weekend that will come out sporadically throughout the year. But one of the questions that was raised for that particular constituency was why does it prayer all always change things. Prayer should change things, but prayer doesn’t always change things. And I see Jesus wrestling with prayer in Matthew 26. So in Matthew 26, Jesus is tells the disciples, sit down here, I need to go pray. He goes off a few feet, he’s asking God if this cup can be taken away from me, take this cup away from me. He goes back, the disciples are asleep. He’s like, dudes, wake up. I just need you to be with me. Just be with me. And he goes off and he prays again. The prayer gets shorter and it’s getting more in anguish. He goes back, they’re asleep again. And he’s like, you can’t just stay awake. And then he goes back and he prays and the prayer is even shorter. And it’s just like, ugh. In that passage I see human Jesus wrestling with what happens when God does not answer prayer. And I think that’s also transformative for us. Instead, I’m super Christian. I pray. If things change, I say this, God jumps. I don鈥檛 know where that came from.

Dr. Angela Parker:
I just, it’s funny. My husband, Dr. Stearns and her husband, they all can play instruments. And the joke was, I’ll be in the background with a tambourine. She鈥檚 playing violin. I’m just like, oh yeah, I’ll dance. Like, wait, stop.

So I think that’s where we see other moments of Jesus going through and I think that’s important. Other moments of transformation, I could think about that. But the Jesus who’s in anguish and prayer is not changing things. I think that’s an important construct as well to think about.

Okay, so I saw here, here. Oh, one more. Okay, we’re down to the back one. Oh, I picked the one more. Who else had their hand up? I saw that hand. Did I see him? Oh, honey, I see. Oh hell. I got to stop. I don’t want to only for over here. See me after because I’m still going to be here and I’m going to be here tomorrow. So I’ll go right here just because it’s bright. It’s the white. It’s not you. It’s the imago dei shining upon thy face. What date is that?

Audience member:
No. Okay, so I want, my question is, so you mentioned you speak to a lot of predominantly white congregations. I live in Ohio and most people, I live in a predominantly white area. But more importantly, I live in a predominantly, I would say maybe traditionalist area. And I love these kind of conversations. I love the context of this school. If I brought this to my town, it would be like what? So what I’m curious to your thoughts on.

Dr. Angela Parker:
Wait a minute, I took this to Amarillo, Texas.

Audience member:
Okay, well maybe I’m wrong.

Dr. Angela Parker:
Amarillo, Texas, Trump town, where when I told a friend that I was in Amarillo, he was like, I grew up there. Are you okay?

Audience member:
So this is probably helpful because I think my question is, what is your advice for where do you start this conversation

Dr. Angela Parker:
Usually? No, that’s a great question. So I often tell students, you can’t go anywhere and preach and teach the way I would preach and teach. What you can do is you can go in with the, have you considered this? I think the best ways for white folks to go and talk to their own white folks, their own family friends, is to just ask gentle questions. Just ask gentle questions of, well, what if Jesus couldn’t get a prayer through? What if Jesus had to have a conversation with this stuff about something that’s happening in the text? What if Jesus actually loves all people and not just our own traditional understandings of ourselves or something? What if Jesus is bigger on what if Jesus is more? And I think the well placed question that just allows the beginning of conversation is the best thing to do. Good. Appreciate that Sister been helping me out all time. For those who didn’t get a question and see me, I’m still here. I’m here until tomorrow. I’m here all weekend, friends. I always say, you have to be part standup comedian and professor. [applause]

Dr. J. Derek McNeil:
I just want to say again, thank you Dr. Parker, and thank you, Dr. Stearns. Thank you, Dr. Leong. This has been a great panel. My only one concern is that we forget too easily that when you move from your seat, you’ll start to lose some of what you heard that we don’t retain very well. So the question is, what do you go and write down that you felt, that you heard, that you saw, that in some ways will stick with you to continue a longer conversation. And so think of it as the conversation began or maybe continue, that you want to keep moving through. Because again, it is a movement, a developmental process. And so my hope is that when you hit the fresh air, and this is pretty cool fresh air, that it won’t wipe you clean and that you’ll remember something. The challenge of remembering is critical for us. And so thank you for being here and being a part of a community, part of what it means to belong, part of what it means to share. And in some ways, not do this as a solo trip. I can appreciate whatever individual stance you take, but you are not by yourself. And if you do it that way, I’m sorry. So blessings to you. Peace to you. That’s my prayer. Shalom, peace to you, peace to you, peace to you, and we’ll see you again. Thank you.

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Ghost & Shadows Conversation Series

In this season as The Seattle School has been looking back at the first 25 years, we, Dr. Paul Hoard and Dr. Doug Shirley, have been exploring what it means to live with the legacies and histories in our community, as well as how to engage with these proverbial ghosts and shadows, these systemic inheritances. Together in this series titled 鈥淕hosts and Shadows,鈥� we鈥檝e examined the past and looked towards the future through three essays, and we also invited colleagues to join in the conversation and share their reflections in a series of podcasts including Dr. Curt Thompson and Dr. Monique Gadson.

Our Guest for this Conversation

Dr. Chelle Stearns served as Associate Professor of Theology at The Seattle School from 2008 鈥� 2023 and now serves as Affiliate Faculty. She is the author of Handling Dissonance: A Musical Theological Aesthetic of Unity and has published essays on subjects such as trauma and Christology, music and trauma, and Pneumatology and the arts. Her current research and writing are at the intersection of theology, music, and trauma.

Transcript

Dr. Paul Hoard:
I am Dr. Paul Hoard, an associate professor of counseling psychology at the Seattle School. Dr. Shirley and I have been working on this project we call Ghosts and Shadows in this season where the school has been looking back at the first 25 years and looking ahead to the next 25 years. And as we are preparing to move from this building to a new location, we’ve been exploring what are the proverbial ghosts that haunt us, the ghosts and shadows with us in our community, as well as how to engage with those ghosts and shadows, what we think about systemic inheritances. We’ve written a few essays and we’ve also continued the conversation in a series of podcasts with a few colleagues to help us reflect together. Dr. Chelle Sterns joins us for this conversation. She taught at the Seattle School from 2008 to 2023 as an Associate Professor of Theology. We are excited to listen to the wisdom, experience, and theological imagination she brings to this conversation.

Dr. Doug Shirley:
Well, back today with Dr. Chelle Stearns. Chelle, thank you so much for being here. We’ve looked forward to, Paul and I’ve looked forward to talking to you for a while. This is our project on Ghosts and Shadows and what it means to be in an institution and a learning community like ours. Looking back at the 25 years that we’ve inherited and contributed to, and then also at the 25 years ahead. Really excited to be in conversation with you probably for two reasons. One, just how long you’ve been a part of the school and the eyes and the wisdom you have for us that way. And then also any theological imagination you might have for if this project is entitled 鈥淕hosts and Shadows.鈥� How do we work with the ghosts and shadows that we inherit just because we live and breathe and move in certain places? And so in this case, this place, Seattle School. So welcome. Thank you for being here.

Dr. Chelle Stearns:
It’s great to be here. Thanks for inviting me.听

Dr. Paul Hoard:
Yeah. Well, I think what strikes me again is how the stories that we tell often then circle around the students. And I say we tell what I was told I’d say now coming in, there was a lot of like, oh, well watch out for our students. When I came in, there was, our students are kind of assertive. They’re aggressive, they, they’re very opinionated. These were some of the things that were sort of passed on to me as I got started. And I think what it makes me curious is what’s that reflection of in terms of us, even actually what you’re saying in terms of wanting to get a bigger picture of the whole curriculum. It’s just how much we can end up being so siloed from one another.

And then of course, then the symptom comes out in the students and how they’re metabolizing everything that we’re saying. And I think, yeah, it makes me curious about now what’s it about us right now, that’s this, that we can tell a story about students. I think that’s where it’s like, oh, it’s easy for us to talk about students as the problem or where students are. But I think the bigger than, what makes me curious is about what’s happening with us on a more of an institutional, because students, students move through us. That’s what students do. They move through an institution, but we’re the ones that stay or become it.

Dr. Doug Shirley:
I had kind a similar, even when you use the phrase whole curriculum, I thought, well, was there one? Because we’ve still worked at building a whole W-H-O-L-E, but it’s been so very difficult because we have been so this personality does this, this personality does that, and good luck sort of thing. The other thing, I guess I heard two other things when you said: good night theology is by itself triggering. Holy cow, we got to talk about that. And two, a 90 person classroom.

Dr. Chelle Stearns:
Oh, yeah.

Dr. Doug Shirley:
Right. So the interplay of, you said half the students’ in a fetal position in a 90 person classroom, theology by itself is triggering. Whoa.

Dr. Chelle Stearns:
Yeah. Fun stuff. And then I stayed for 15 years.

Dr. Doug Shirley:
Yeah. So tell us about that. How did you make your way?

Dr. Chelle Stearns:
Well, I’ll start with the students. I mean, I think there is something to, what does that reflect about the faculty? But there’s also, I’ll say this in a really positive light. Students after studying lots of trauma theory, students feel like they have agency. And I think that, and that’s sometimes really difficult for them because they don’t have as much power, but they still feel like they can challenge. And I remember one student made the comment when she came back later on a panel, one of the symposia, we put our bodies in the middle of the classroom and then the teachers had to work around us. And I’m like, so I think that’s a really significant thing, especially when thinking about theology. I think there’s often been times when students have come into the school, and I’ve heard this in different ways over the years: I’ve had a theology that I was basically told and told I had to assent to.

I had to memorize the right theology to remain orthodox, or I had to memorize the right theology to remain in the group. And now I’m doing this psychology, which I’ll say just human growth and development and attachment styles often disrupted the students in significant ways. And that also they were also taking that class at the same time as my fall class at that point. And so you begin to go, so they’re not just deconstructing their theology, they’re deconstructing in such a way that they’re beginning to understand themselves and their families, their own systems, their relationships. And then they come into a place where this strange person is hosting a class, even bringing in a guest speaker, and they’re supposed to trust when we’re talking about sin. And for me, I’m just like, I’m a new person. We’re going to talk theology. This is just what we do. And oh, these students have agency and they have desire to know something better, and it’s hitting up against their theology or their lives in really, really significant ways. So for me, I think at the time I was like, what is this crazy thing that’s happening? I look back now and I go, wow, it’s really amazing that students felt like they had the capacity essentially to say no. What all emerged for 90 students in a classroom? I don’t know.

And there’s probably a lot more to the story than that. But the question was how then to invest them in the work at a graduate school? And it made me realize, oh, okay, I can’t do theology in a vacuum.I can鈥檛 just talk about the Christian tradition. This is a holistic, this is why I talk about the whole curriculum. Because there was something even at that point that the students understood or felt or hid back against. And we could talk about personalities, we could talk about things like that. But the reality is we kept inviting them back into this process of thinking through their own stories, thinking through their own, where does this hit me? And I’ll say, as a theologian, I was always told never to ask any of those questions and incorporate that into theology. So here I was like, oh, these students have a lot of agency. They’re going to hit back because they care. This matters to them. So they’re not going to just come and sit blindly and repeat back the questions. They dove in. I did this project called a God Body Map and the projects that came out of that, there was art in my office all over the place. And I was like, so as much as they might be stirred up and doing things from other classes or in their own lives, they also were, oh, but you want to know my story, you want to see me?

And I was like, wow, that kind of diving in I think is rare. So there was something also amazingly compelling to what our students are. So, Paul, back to your question of what is it about us? But I’m like, yeah, students who care, they’re willing to get into the fight. They’re willing to be a bit rebellious or to do just beautiful great, great work. So that also was really stunning.

Dr. Doug Shirley:
What makes me think about, Paul, something you said last night, the gift of trauma is that it requires us to go where we don’t want to go. And, Chelle, that’s kind of been theology and trauma or the theology of trauma or the trauma of theology. I don’t know how you would put the puzzle pieces together, but is it right to say that’s a place that during your time here you settled into that intersection? Is that a right thing to say?

Dr. Chelle Stearns:
Yeah, I mean for me it probably because it’s so much more of a interdisciplinary stumbling through, and it was really in some ways, students who were looking for some sort of language, some sort of what’s going on. And yeah, I’ve heard people at the school talk a lot about students coming in, very trauma-based. They have stories. But don’t we all? How did we all get to the school and teaching at the school? I mean, that’s the whole unpacking in and of itself. But I think part of that was really in some sense, I don’t know.

I think for me, there was a strong, strong sense of needing to reimagine redemption that wasn’t simply a regurgitation of penal, substitutionary atonement. I mean, Serene Jones that first put together in some ways, some of the language, I mean more recently, around why would someone, because she tells a story in her trauma and grace book about someone running out of a service during communion or during the Eucharist and being really triggered by the violent language of the death of Christ. And what do you do with these moments when the language is so reliant upon the violence or so reliant upon death? And I don’t want to say we can鈥檛 talk about the death of Jesus, but there is something to how we, and I think this is where the merging of those early years, how we tell the story really, really matters. And because the stories we tell, the stories that kind of embody our lives in many ways, shape and they construct our world.

And so I think, I began to see, even just a couple of years into the school that there just needed to be a restoring that happened theologically. And the struggle for me always was, how do I do that without losing the center of faith? We do that without losing the center of Christianity, and yet finding new paths forward that helps us think through, well, what are we being saved from? What are we being saved toward? Or even, I remember one time, O’Donnell, a couple of times, and I did a comparison between atonement theories in psychology and atonement theories in theology, and what is the balance or what is the conversation or the dialogue between these two things? And so she kept asking me, why do you need to be rescued? And I’m like, psychologically, I don’t know. But it made me realize, oh, in some ways we accept the simple story theologically, or we accept the simple story in our faith and it often answers some sort of felt need or answers something. And so that began, I call it the haunting of Christology for me. So if Jesus isn’t only that, and so instead of throwing out Jesus, I found my Christology getting deeper and deeper, wider and wider. And yeah, we could talk about that more if you’d like, but

Dr. Doug Shirley:
What it makes me ask, I love hearing you talk as a theologian who was making their way into how you do your job from a, I have to teach this content and process. I’m still working with it. And you came in under the orders, the communal orders, you don’t want to know about that. And so I’m even curious鈥� how if redemption, if your theology has gone deeper and wider, what is the redemption of 鈥淵ou don’t want to know about that鈥�? What’s the redemption of that haunting? That’s what we’re chasing. That’s what we want to chase here, is not just the what are the dirty clothes, the dirty socks in the closet that we could really get rid of, but also what are the things we need to listen to? And that might be really hard to listen to. And when we say things like, you don’t want to know about that, we miss opportunity, we miss redemption.

Dr. Chelle Stearns:
Well, I think it was later on when I started reading Judith Herman and realizing whenever we shut down the stories, no matter what they are, those stories have more power. And in some ways, by not talking about these things, they just remained there and hovered over us.

And especially when it has to do with stories around even the haunting of鈥搒omething was inappropriate or someone was harmed. And sometimes this language gets thrown around haphazardly rather than. So even the ghost or the shadow of a story that wasn’t maybe even true begins to actually have power and it digs its way into the community and the dynamics. And I’ve always been amazed at how much students gossip in the background. And so those things begin to have more life that they actually should have as opposed to actually getting to know your ghosts. Or what is it? I think it’s a Rilke poem. It was quoted in Ted Lasso. So I can say this, that idea of getting to know your inner dragons. And so it almost feels a little bit like that. There are these dragons that are wandering the halls, but no one’s acknowledging them. But you keep going past them and hoping that they don’t breathe fire on you. And then you realize later on, oh, that was just a little lizard, and he doesn’t breathe fire at all. And so that’s maybe part of the dynamic as well, of when you don’t talk about it, it might have more power than it should.

Dr. Doug Shirley:
I have a Judith Herman connection, but Paul, anything you want to work on? Have you read her newest book, Shelly, Truth and Repair?

Dr. Chelle Stearns:
I need to, I just bought it. I heard her do a seven-minute interview on NPR when it first came out. And I was really struck by her sense of what do people who have experienced violence really want in the process of healing.

Dr. Doug Shirley:
And how all of our systems are rigged against that really largely. And she does this thing, she gives us this idea of a moral community. She’s talking about legal reparations for folks who have endured trauma hardship, but she also talks about the moral injury that comes to bystanders in community who have watched something problematic happen. So you take this sort of perpetrator, victim dyad, but the idea that that’s always surrounded by a community and the community experience is injury. But we load up the, let’s say, whether it’s two groups of people or two individuals or whatever, we load up the players, perpetrator and victim, but everyone around needs restitution. And so this argument that when we seek restitution in a more dyadic form between victim and perpetrator, the injury and the moral incongruence that sits in the community doesn’t get resolved. And so when that doesn’t get resolved, that injury perpetuates, which I think then sort of feeds this haunting that you’re talking about, around why stories then become bigger, badder. Is that going to hurt me too? I’m already injured, but I’m more injured by my own complicity and there’s not a chance to do anything about that. And so I have been really taken by that. She’s largely speaking of that, again, in a legal system, what it looks like to seek a moral community from a legal perspective. But man, oh man, I just wonder what does that mean for us? For instance, where have we been bystanders injured in processes and therefore adding to frameworks that are not helpful?

Dr. Chelle Stearns:
Yeah. Paul, I don’t know if you want to jump in there.

Dr. Paul Hoard:
Yeah, no, I’ve got a lot of different thoughts in terms, especially when we think about, I’m not as familiar with Judith Herman’s work, so I don’t have as much to throw in there, but there’s a lot of categories and ideas that you’re both bringing up. Having a minute, trying to get my thoughts together and all that. Well, because I think even I won’t want to shoot and yell an Amen with my own work around inner passivity in particular and what happens in this kind of communal sense of when you’re not the active agent, but you’re still benefiting from the agency of other people. And this way that we are together and that we end up a form of complicity that’s sort of this disavowed hidden complicity where we may not be the ones that actually did the thing, but we still benefit from it. And so we let it be, and that becomes this way that we both then pretend we’re not guilty, and so try to avoid that conscious guilt.

But it’s these stories that continue to haunt us, that stay in us. And yeah, I guess I’m putting that together sort of slowly with some of the things you’re saying actually in terms of our own school and these stories that when they’re passed on to us or when we see them or when we’re a part of them or when we hear of them, there’s a sense in which we’re already in it, whether we were in the room when it happened or not, and they’re kind of continuing to float around. And I think, yeah, the question is, we don’t want to go into, let’s name ’em and somehow exorcise the demons. And I think that’s a lot what our blog posts, Doug, is about trying to not do that. Also, not pretend they’re not there, but is sort of like, okay, so what’s another way through to listen to them, to give them so that these stories can be told and therefore hopefully transform the stories. So the dragons can be the lasers, like you say, Chelle, and that we can now have a relationship with them and that we can be transformed in them.

Dr. Doug Shirley:
It makes me wonder, so if I put together what I hear each of you saying, so, Paul, inner passivity and, Chelle, agency of students, it makes me wonder, even this thing we were talking about earlier of students are able to say no, students are able to kind of do things that maybe we don’t even feel free to do as faculty. It makes me wonder about our inner passivity related to something not quite conscious around here. I’ll look at it in myself. For instance, I could see myself adding to a dynamic where a student’s behavior is, let’s say problematic or something, but because they have agency and because they’re able to say no, something in me wishes that I could have said no in the ways that they feel free to say no. And so even if the way they’re doing it ain’t great, something is like, oh, that. And so even that, I think your phrase just now, Paul was like, well, let me let it be right. And so then even what happens to me when I’m in a classroom and there’s this impulse in me, well let that be because there’s an inner passivity in me that says, well, at least somebody’s getting it, even if I don’t get to get it, either past or present. That’s a helpful frame.

Dr. Chelle Stearns:
Well, yeah. And you bring it back to鈥� every student that comes in is bringing, if they’ve been in church, if they’ve been in a community, so they bring in their whole family, but if they’ve been raised in a church, they also bring in that whole church community or the multiple church communities that they’ve been a part of. And let’s say they didn’t have a good experience or the theology that was given to them, for example, not to bring it back to theology, but let’s bring it back to theology. And a phrase that I started using in class is kind of a theology of gaslight lighting, that sometimes when things have come up or just from their own experience in these, whether it’s in their family, whether it’s in a church community, that essentially then they get silenced or they’re told that there’s nothing to see here.

These are not the droids you were looking鈥揻or those Star Wars fans out there鈥揵ut there’s something in that process where they see something and they go to name it, and then they’re just said, no, that’s not really real. And so in some ways to have paths of intellectual development, paths of psychological development, paths of maturity that allow them to have the agency to say, I don’t know how to name this right now, and all the things that are coming with me, I’m now not responding to you as a teacher. I’m actually responding to my church community back home or to my mother or to my father, to whomever, that pastor who鈥搕hat stupid youth pastor or whatever that said that weird thing or had a pattern of, kind of name your thing that’s there. And the problem is that then you’re not really in the classroom as an academic space. All of a sudden you’re in this very psychological space. I’m like, well, now we’re not talking about theology anymore. Now you’re talking about your experience with your youth pastor who probably had very minimal either psychological or theological training.

I have great experience. I have great stories from my growing up in a Baptist church as a woman that also come out. And that’s the other funny thing. Now we’re getting into 鈥淲hat am I responding to when the student says that?鈥� and now there might be this battling of past ghosts in the classroom. Am I actually addressing the student or am I addressing something in my own past that? And so yeah, you begin to see that moral injury or that community that’s around us that has helped us understand who we are or maybe named us in inappropriate ways or deceitful ways, or you need, as a woman growing up in a Baptist church, it was kind of like, why don’t you get back in the box? This is what you’re supposed to be as a woman. Stop asking the questions you鈥檙e asking and don’t study theology. You need to go back to these roles. These are the biblical roles. And I’m like, no, those are cultural roles. So all of those things begin to kind of swirl around when we begin to have these conversations. So again, kind of coming back to what happens when someone begins to name something in a classroom, even if it’s inappropriate, they’re beginning to understand, oh, I don’t have to live in the silence that has haunted me in a way, that has caused me to disbelieve my own reality.

Dr. Paul Hoard:
I love what you’re bringing up there. I mean, there’s so much in there, but one of the things that caught me was that I think I felt is that tension when you said this is no longer an academic space. And the tension that reels, because on one hand, that’s how beautiful, that we’re not stuck doing just academic stuff, that we’re not decontextualizing our 性视界rmation, that we’re allowing our students and ourselves to be real and for this to impact them. And also, I think I’m aware just in my own classrooms of how that can also become really problematic because we actually are here for an academic purpose, and there is an academic side to what we want to do here. And like you said, in a class of 90, that’s not how you do group therapy. When you’re doing that kind of work on people’s stories and helping ’em do that, there’s reasons that there’s the frame that we put in for it that’s not there in a classroom. So yeah, I just find myself with that.

Dr. Doug Shirley:
It speaks to what you’ve been saying, Paul, of this tension: we haven’t known whether to call ourselves part of the academy or not. We kind of came in trying to act like we weren’t really a part of it, but of course we are a part of it. And so that me, not-me thing. And so you strike me as someone who has very clearly made their way in the academy. You have a place in the academy, you’ve owned your place in the academy. Have you heard Paul talk about this thing of, or even just if we say it now, this sense of, well, we’re not that we’re not your traditional school. We’re not. Are we a training center? This confusion around, are we academics? Are we not academics? Are we allowed to talk academically with each other? So I wonder if you have anything, have anything there?

Dr. Chelle Stearns:
Yeah, I mean, it has been nteresting in an American, not a British sense. When Brits say interesting, it’s like, oh, you’re dismissing me. But it has been an interesting tension the entire time. But I think the way I’ve begun to think about it is: you do your own work. You do your own academic work, just like you do your own psychological work so that you’re prepared in some ways to be more improvisational in the classroom or in what you ask students to do, that there’s a little bit more of a give and take or a back and forth. And so I find myself just reading a lot more, retooling my classroom in a way that I probably wouldn’t have in other places, because in some ways, the stirring of the pot or the stew that is the classroom often has shifted and changed so much.

I mean, 2020 with George Floyd and the Black Lives Matters movement really rising up and the conversation in the entire country around racial tension, racial inequality, it rose in such a way that that’s a great example of, well then what do you do in your classroom? That鈥檚 not something that’s just going to stay outside neat and tidy, but in some ways, that was a bit of how I was trained to be a theologian is that you ask the isolated question. I mean, it’s a very modernist way of understanding it, but when you are inviting these things into the classroom, you have to be ready to improvise. And so just like a jazz player, you know your chords, you know how to change. So here鈥檚 a great鈥揑 have a friend that used to play at Canlis here in Seattle with Jack Brownlow, who was a great jazz pianist way back in the day in Seattle.

And so one thing that he used to do to our friend is he would just change keys in the middle. And our friend was a bass player, so he had to learn how to keep up with, if he changed keys in the middle of a song, partly because if someone ever came up and started singing with him, that’s what he would do to get ’em to stop singing. But that’s what we do in the classroom all the time, is all of a sudden we have to change keys and figure out, well, do I know how to play this tune in any key with any mood, with any kind of context, rather than I’m the content holder and you as students are the people who are, this is the banking model in education. And so in many ways, we, by entering into this, we are academics because we keep up and we read more and more, we become aware of things. And I realized that when I talk to people at other seminaries, especially around theology, most people go to college or go and get their PhD and then they teach the same thing for the next 30 to 40 years.

Dr. Doug Shirley:
Yeah.

Dr. Chelle Stearns:
They don’t go and go, oh, well, I guess I should read a lot of Black theology now. Oh, I guess I should read some feminist work. Oh, I guess I should. That’s just not normal. But to survive at this school, oh my goodness, that was one of the first things I began to do, is fill in the holes of my education and wonder, well, how does this more contextual theology work into how the tradition has gone? And so that’s a very long, but I’m like, for me, that’s where the academy has really helped me. I can go to a conference and I can hear Willie Jennings and J. Kameron Carter talk about, well, what is, and, Brian Bantam, this is a session I went to a long time ago about 鈥淲hat’s the future of Black theology?鈥� And I’m like, well, I don’t think I’ve read any Black theology.

And so that becomes this kind of entry into, okay, so now I can dive deep into something that I have little experience of, but yet at the same time have being invited into because I am a part of the academy. And so in some ways, it’s always an opportunity to be curious, learn just a little bit more, dive a little bit deeper and realize, oh, people are asking the same question I’m asking only maybe from a different perspective or the shift happens of. So how does that help me to go back and rethink my own work as I go along? So I think of it as a dynamic back and forth.

Dr. Doug Shirley:
That’s really helpful. That helps put words to, I have patience for a lot. Well, I hope I have patience for a lot of things, but one of the things I don’t have much patience for is when students start saying, well, we’re just guinea pigs. You’re just trying out this new thing. We’re just guinea pigs. Because I, me, there’s the immediate response that I hear you speaking to of like, well, we could be doing the same thing we’ve done for the last 10 or 20 years. I would much rather be in a place where we’re trying to listen to Covid, for instance, and what does it tell us, as opposed to, wait, we got to get back to what we did 20 years ago. So that’s really helpful. Yeah.

Dr. Paul Hoard:
Yeah. No, and I love the framing of the academic side is what facilitates unto something else. It’s unto a freeform, a jazz in the classroom. And I think sometimes it’s pitted as opposed to that, it’s this stuffy thing that is either about our own trying to be pretentious and whatever else we’re doing, as opposed to, no, this is my words. This is how I play. This is the way I go play, is that I’m going to go read a book on something and then play with these ideas. That is a form of play for me, and that’s what I want to invite the students to. And that’s what the way I hear what you’re saying, Chelle, is I want to saturate myself in more of the conversation that I’m inviting students into so that wherever we end up going in the classroom, I feel comfortable to be able to go with them. I have touchpoints in there. And to guide them in that and to help, not just to tell them what it is, but to continue to bring frame and context and to then point them in directions that are going to be more interesting for ’em.

Dr. Chelle Stearns:
Yeah, and I maybe bring it back to, as we’re talking about ghosts and shadows, of working with the story rather than trying to control it and saying, no, this is the right way to go.

And I think in the classroom it’s always a challenge. [DS: Yeah.] One thing that’s very, very live right now within American Christianity and North American, Canadian and American churches is the conversations around LGBTQ issues. And it’s not just kind of like, it’s no longer, what do we think about this? It’s now you’re either in that part of the denomination or that part of the denomination, or you’ve now been kicked out of your denomination, and so the lines are being drawn. So whatever we’re talking about in the classroom, really it has taken a whole new life within. So if I think about my own academic work, and I do, I see doing theology, doing my own theology as an act of prayer. It is a deep part of my own spirituality and my own faith. And so I don’t just kind of randomly read things. This is part of my, what God is inviting me into.

And so it helps to deepen my own faith, but so that when we are in the world and things are really beginning to shift, I mean, these are the students that are coming into the classroom who are like, I got kicked out of my church, or These are their own ghosts and shadows. I got kicked out of my church. My church got kicked out of its denomination. I was on the floor when the denomination was having this conversation, and I realized how much I was being erased by so many people. Or I feel terror when someone talks about LGBTQ+ issues because I have a different opinion than them. And so all of those things are being, it’s center stage in the church right now, and I realize how much, if we aren’t in some sense, if there’s not a school having these conversations and really talking well both theologically and psychologically about what’s happening in the church, and they’ve always been by kind of bifurcated. We realize this is where we get to, we begin to have doctrine over humanity, cradle over unity within the church and a lot because people feel deep, deep terror, get back to trauma in the church. And I’m like, so what ghosts and shadows are within the church that so many denominations right now cannot actually have good conversation and keep the family system together.

The post Ghosts & Shadows Conversation Series: Podcast with Guest Dr. Chelle Stearns appeared first on The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology.

Ghost & Shadows Conversation Series

In this season as The Seattle School has been looking back at the first 25 years, we, Dr. Paul Hoard and Dr. Doug Shirley, have been exploring what it means to live with the legacies and histories in our community, as well as how to engage with these proverbial ghosts and shadows, these systemic inheritances. Together in this series titled 鈥淕hosts and Shadows,鈥� we鈥檝e examined the past and looked towards the future through three essays, and we also invited colleagues to join in the conversation and share their reflections in a series of podcasts starting with Dr. Curt Thompson.

Our Guest for this Conversation

Dr. Monique Gadson is a licensed professional counselor, consulting therapist, educator, and podcast host. She received her B.S. in Business Management from The University of Alabama, her M.S. in Clinical Mental Health Counseling from Troy State University, her M.S. in Spirituality and Counseling from Richmont Graduate University, and her Ph.D. in Marriage and Family Therapy from Amridge University. Dr. Gadson hosts the podcast, 鈥淎nd The Church Said,鈥� which discusses church and culture from a Christian counseling perspective, focusing on mental and emotional health and the church. She provides counseling and consulting services through her practice, Transforming Visions, LLC., concerning issues such as grief, trauma, anxiety, depression, marriage and family care, relationship challenges, questions of faith, and spiritual abuse. Her areas of professional and ministerial interest include premarital and pre-engagement education/counseling, individual development, effects of trauma on development, family-of-origin influences, relationships, marriage and family therapy and education, the intersection of theology and psychology, and the Church and mental health ministry.

Dr. Gadson served on the staff of a church for 16 years as the clinical mental health counselor. She also has served as an expert contributor to the U.S. Department of Veteran Affairs for a video-based training series for chaplain services, and as a consulting therapist for several churches and organizations. She has taught several courses in psychology, counseling, leadership development, legal and ethical professional development in marriage and family therapy, systematic evaluation and case management, and human development. Presentations at professional conferences include the American Association of Marriage and Family Therapy, the Christian Association for Psychological Studies, and the American Association of Christian Counselors. Passionate about individual development and relationship education, considering these as means of discipleship, she believes the cornerstone for a healthy society is the love for one鈥檚 self and others fueled by a love of God.

Transcript

Dr. Paul Hoard:
I am Dr. Paul Hoard, an Associate Professor of Counseling Psychology at The Seattle School. Dr. Shirley and I have been working on this project we call Ghosts and Shadows in this season where the school has been looking back at the first 25 years and looking ahead to the next 25 years. And as we are preparing to move from this building to a new location, we’ve been exploring what are the proverbial ghosts that haunt us, the ghosts and shadows with us in our community, as well as how to engage with those ghosts and shadows, what we think about systemic inheritances. We’ve written a few essays and we’ve also continued the conversation in a series of podcasts with a few colleagues to help us reflect together. We are grateful for our colleague Dr. Monique Gadson, accepting our invitation. Dr. Gadson joined The Seattle School in 2022. We are looking forward to engaging with the perspective she brings as our newest faculty member.

Dr. Doug Shirley:
Well, I am smiling because a long awaited conversation with Dr. Monique Gadson is upon us, Monique and Paul and I have been talking about this kind of conversation for a while. We’ve been having a bunch of these kinds of conversations off screen. But here we are on screen to, Monique, ask you about our project to invite you into this project that we’re working on, that we’ve called Ghosts and Shadows, and that we believe means something. Maybe it’s helping us to keep our own sanity and mind and what’s about us in the midst of a season where we’re looking back at 25 years and looking ahead at 25 years and saying, who are we and what is this? And even as we now know we’re moving buildings like the proverbial ghost in the closet, what are the ghosts in the shadows, whether it’s the red brick building or the community of learners that we are, what are the ghosts in shadows that are with us?

And how do we think about things like systemic inheritances being a part of an ancestral line, being a part of intergenerational flow and where stuff gets hung up and where it flows freely and what helps things to flow freely. So like with Curt, with Dr. Thompson, one of the things that we worked on was in his framework, a track two type of way of engaging both narrowly and otherwise where, help me, Paul, if I misspeak it here, but where with intention and purpose we choose to hover, not unlike the spirit hovered in the Genesis account, creating order, seeking beauty and goodness, not just sort of giving into limbic craziness, but in some ways knowing that that track one in the trenches, disordered, chaotic way is in all of us and we have to engage it in some way to bring about order to seek goodness. He left us with this notion of durable beauty that both Paul and I went, what is that?

But we want whatever it is, we want it. So anyway, it’s that conversation that we want to invite you into. So thank you for being here today. We’re recording this so we have it. So this is to as much stimulate our minds and what we’ll write next. So welcome. Thank you for being here.

Dr. Monique Gadson:
Very excited.

Dr. Doug Shirley:
I love, again, my sense is that you’re going to warm up here in just a moment and we’re going to hear some good stuff. So even what you just heard me say, are you already thinking or feeling something in terms of what I just said?

Dr. Monique Gadson:
Oh yeah, thoughts are abounding for sure.

Dr. Doug Shirley:
I figured. Would you share whatever you’re inclined.

Dr. Monique Gadson:
So I guess just to start off with, thank you guys for engaging me in the conversation and inviting me to be a part of it, especially as the newborn, if you will, the newbie. So there are probably advantages to that. There are probably a lot of disadvantages to that, but we go forward anyway. But I guess my first initial thought, well my first initial thought that I’ll start with, is how courageous of you all to take on this project? Because I think it can be just so easy to know that there’s an elephant in the room, but not will wanting to be the one to say, do you think that there’s an elephant in the room or do you see the elephant in the room? So I think that it is really courageous and really bold. And when I say bold, I’m thinking more of a boldness with a spirit of adventure if you will. Not so much like this, I kind of hold this superior positioning and I’m bold enough to tell you this. I don’t feel it’s that way. I think it’s more of a boldness with a sense of adventure where it can be, again, so easy to tuck your head in the sand and just kind of, but to say, Nope, we don’t want to do this. We want to confront it, we want to look at it, we want to call it by whatever its name is. And to then decide how do we want to deal accordingly.

Dr. Doug Shirley:
I love your boldness. We just, were talking with Andrew who’s off screen, who’s going wing-walking. I hear echoes of wing-walking even in that sense of we’re trying to adventure here. I like that. I like that. One of our prime intents, I’ll speak for you Paul, and you tell me if it’s wrong. I know it’s not wrong, but tell me if you would add, is to do something generative. We’re not here to bash, we’re not here to crash the plane. We’re here to find a different sort of wind beneath our wings, so to speak, that could carry us a long way in the days ahead. So thank you for calling that bold. I feel that I feel the difficulty of moving into this, but I do also feel the excitement of like, oh, I could actually think better. I could actually find my mind if we were to stay on with this project.

Dr. Paul Hoard:
And just to add, I think what’s drawn me to this personally has been this. There’s something that I don’t know and I feel very tuned to not knowing there’s something that I don’t know what it is. And I think Doug, our little blog posts are sort of you and I’s attempts at trying to name it, but they feel really insufficient. We don’t know what it is because hopefully even engaging you can feel the like, oh, there’s something we don’t know happening here. And I think inviting Curt and Monique and Chelle and others to kind of dialogue with us is trying to help invite your words to help us get closer as we move into this not knowing into that openness of track two that Curt talked about of like, okay, yeah, we all sense it. We’re using the word elephant, the way we talk about the elephant in the room, but I have no idea what it is, but here’s some words for the felt experience of it for me. Yeah. And with that, maybe just curious, Monique, what’s happened for you, especially as the newbie, I’m thinking of as the newest member of the faculty, you’re the one joining and there’s an element of that perspective of you haven’t been around long enough for it to become normal yet. You can feel this isn’t normal at times. And so as much as you feel open to maybe what are some of those moments been like for you?

Dr. Monique Gadson:
Yeah, so it’s really interesting. It’s been, I guess I would say kind of an awkward place to be because part of me would wonder, is it because I’m new and everyone else kind of knows the language and it’s like, oh yeah, this is when we, this is what we call, or this is where mother keeps the blah blah, blah. You kind of like, oh, okay, Paul, I know you and I have so often described it as that in-law thing. So when you’re coming into a new family, it’s like, okay, well where do you keep the towels? So you almost feel awkward to ask the question because everybody else knows. But also what has been interesting to ask the question is when it is not known. So there is very much this sense of like you’re saying there is a thing, but we can’t really put a finger on it.

We can’t really say what it is. I do believe the experiences that I’ve had, the naming of what we think it is is probably not what it really is. It’s usually kind of what gets or who gets scapegoated if you will. So it is been, in the beginning, it’s kind of sorry about my very naive questions, but with you, a curious person by nature, I am an asker of the question, if you will, as my father would always say. And so by asking those questions, I believe, as Doug is saying, I think it generates something if we have the courage to ask the question. So that’s kind of been the best way. I guess I can try to explain it where being new it is this, well, I just don’t know, but now it’s not, I don’t know because I’m new. It’s like I don’t know because it is that skeleton or that elephant.

Dr. Doug Shirley:
Yeah. Well I love what you said there, Monique, whatever we think it is is probably not. Right. What actually, if a myth holds a people together, part of what helps to preserve the myth is we can’t really actually get to what it is and its truth or veracity or whatever. We just like, the myth actually falls apart when it gets named and articulated. And so there’s something about that. But I’ll tell you what, I’m really drawn, your father calls you the asker of the question.

Is that right? Yeah. You said of Paul and I that we are bold, but you we’re here in part because of you, because you’ve come in and stirred up. You’ve come in and been the asker of the question in places like faculty meeting where you’ve said, what are you people talking about and what are you doing to the elephant? [MG speaking] No, I’m paraphrasing, just kidding. I’m paraphrasing. But what you have, even the elephant, you are the one who in a faculty meeting said it’s like there’s an elephant in the room that we’re not talking about. And so you said to us, I don’t know if I can trust you people, if you’re not going to actually actually want to try to articulate, we may get there, we may not get there, but if we’re going to dance around this thing, instead of trying to look at it, I don’t know if I want to be a part of you people. Which led at least in my memory, to something like a 90 minute unprecedented faculty conversation around all of the elephants that exist in our system. We developed a list. Am I remembering that? Does that sound right to you all? So you being an asker of the question, it seems to me even as you enter the system, our system, you have been asking questions that we needed to have asked.

Dr. Monique Gadson:
Yeah.

Dr. Paul Hoard:
Well the kid who points out that the emperor is naked, no really willing to say, I don’t see the clothes. And I think being new enough in your own boldness or history or being willing to be the one that acknowledges the not knowing as opposed to sort of, I’m going to play the part and I think, and I would put my own joining in this. I’ll play the part I learned to adapt to whatever system I’m in, which both works for me on a survival method, but also doesn’t help, helps me then adapt to become part of a system. Doesn’t question the system very well. And so your willingness to come in and say, no, no, that emperor is naked, I don’t see any clothes, forces, is that I think in some ways the healthy shame of like, yeah, no, no, we’ve been playing something. We’ve been playing something. There’s a shame that I think is a deserved and a healthy like no, because this isn’t who we want to be. We can be better than that calling us.

Dr. Doug Shirley:
I hope it’s okay for me to say here. I’ve heard you say you’ve had the word shame on you given to you in a loving charging way in your past. And so maybe even that’s what I hear Paul saying of this is a project about shame and it’s not a project about mean, those ghosts and shadows may point towards what Resma [Menakem] calls dirty pain or something that isn’t so healthy, but also maybe a healthy shame where we got to say, oh yeah, I have been playing that game and maybe that’s not a good game for me to play.

Dr. Monique Gadson:
I think that when there is either an unconscious or maybe semi-conscious survival mechanism that is in operation, then what we are gearing toward is how do we survive? So I guess maybe some of that that Curt has been talking to you guys about on that level. And I think that when we are stuck in that mode, I think our imaginations are gridlocked. And that’s some of what Friedman will talk about. The imagination will have this gridlock. We can’t think beyond just what do we need to do to survive. And so I thought it was really interesting and part of your blog where you guys talked about how does this institution stay relevant in the midst of all of the other kind of changes that are taking place, but it feels as though there is this sense of to stay relevant means to survive, and then that means I’m stuck in my survival loop.

You know what I’m saying? And I think that maybe unbeknownst to us, we find ourselves swept up in all those changes, even though we’re trying to figure out how to stay relevant. I think that we inadvertently get swept up because when I hear the language or when I read the language, how do we stay relevant when all other things are being tossed to and fro? That’s like the words I like to use. So staying relevant, how is it that we can be the tree that may bend but won’t break, right? So yes, we are going to feel the rusting of all of the things that are happening externally and how is it that institutionally we have that non-anxious presence to be able to say, yeah, everything can swirl around us. I mean because it will, every generation of students, every two to three years, four to five years, whatever the case may be, something’s going to come in and something’s going to blow in that is happening societally, culturally, nationally, wherever else. It’s just all of these things are going to be happening. But if an institution I feel is going to survive, it has to say yes, we can address what is happening and also how is it that we remain a non-anxious presence? And I think that in order to be able to do that well, you have to get out of survival mode. You have to get out of that cycle that feeds, this is what we do to stay relevant, which you may exist, but I don’t know that you’re staying relevant

Dr. Doug Shirley:
In our text threads, even just staying connected with each other. And in the conversation leading up to today, Paul, you said, I think it was you that said, or one of you two said, so then it’s sort of like we create these dramas to show that we exist and that we’re needed, but it’s not actually a move. If I listen to what you’re saying, it’s not a move out of survival. It’s actually that same looping, but we create dramas to keep the loop going so that we know that we exist.

Dr. Paul Hoard:
I mean, when you thrive in chaos, you’re going to create chaos to thrive. And so then I think there’s a confusion of is this the chaos that like you’re saying, is being blown on us or is this also us making sure that it’s always there? Because maybe part of our inheritance is we thrive in chaos. We were born out of chaos. And so there’s a tendency that almost a growth out of it that we don’t know how to make. And so we’re sort of stuck in a loop. And I hear that even in, I think something that was thrown out earlier today that’s been a recurring theme that you’ve said, Monique, in our faculty meetings, which is like we perform as faculty as a school, we perform and we perform fairly well. We know how to put on a show, we know how to do things.

So our external, what we present to the students, to the world, to the rest is one thing. But I think that it doesn’t lead to that non-anxious presence you’re talking about Monique, because we don’t know how to talk to each other, the roots of the tree that the invisible part of us that isn’t seen outside isn’t sturdy. And so I think there’s this desire for us to, what I hear you trying to cultivate mess, Monique, is can we talk to each other so that conversations that nobody else ever needs to hear about so that when we go out there, it’s not a performance, it’s a living out of conversations we’ve already had. And I think even this conversation, the meta point here is maybe very Seattle School of me that we’re having a conversations being recorded for other people, but the three of us have been having a conversation for a year. This is not the first time we’ve talked with you about some of these things, Monique. Not that we were rehearsing this, but that I think this conversation being recorded would’ve been inappropriate if it hadn’t come out of a year of us sitting on it wrestling with each other.

Dr. Monique Gadson:
Yeah, I don’t think I would’ve agreed had there not been prior conversation with you all to really have a firm understanding of what do you want to do with this? Where are you going with this? So yeah, to your point, I don’t think that this conversation, well, it could have taken place, but I do believe as you say, it would have been along lines of being very performative. And I just believe that I think as the clinician in me that may be, cannot sense and discern whatever that is that’s going unnamed without saying we need to name this at some point. We need to name it at some point. I’ve seen it too many times over the decades that I’ve been doing the work that the thing that we’re trying not to name is usually the obstacle to the thing that we keep saying we’re trying to get to. So yeah, I can remember working with couples and as you mentioned that dancing around and okay, there’s some tension here and everything is good and some tension there and everything is good. And I keep going, what’s the tension about? What are y’all not telling me? I said, I really feel like there is something you’re not telling me. And boy, when they told me Kapo, but it was on the other side of that beauty emerged and not only beauty, there was a stability.

I’m thinking of a couple who has spent over 20 years together and never married, never married. And I’m kind of going, whoa, this is a long time to be together and have the desire but never fulfill it. What do you guys afraid of? What are you not telling me? What’s keeping you from doing this thing? And when they finally named it, and of course all of the chaos ensued behind the naming, but when the calm came, so did the stability, the marriage took place. And as far as I know, marriage has been going good. Every now and again, they’ll pop up and just say, Hey, we’re doing well. And I’m like, great.

Dr. Doug Shirley:
What my mind did with what you just said that I think was wrong was my own couple’s mind when, oh, she’s saying that they had a piece of paper that said that they were legally tied, but they weren’t actually acting like they’re married, but you are saying no, they literally didn’t even do the deed to have the piece of paper that said that they were married. Which I think even that back and forth fits some of what I experience in our ranks as faculty. Are we married? Are we in, do we have contracts? What do the contracts authorize us to do and not authorize us to do? Can we have a contract but not actually be in? If we’re married are we actually married? Are there parts of us that we’ve kept from getting married the whole time out of fear and trepidation and survival needs? If we don’t talk to each other as intimate partners and that can just be as good friends and colleagues鈥搘hat’s keeping us from that?

Dr. Monique Gadson:
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that question has to be asked. I think that that question has to be answered at some point because if not, if we are talking about this, these inheritances, then you’re going to continue to pass that on, generation to generation. They’re going to continue to get that until there is someone who is going well. So questions can be asked, but again, and there can be attempts to answer, and apparently the answers are not sufficient because still in this place. Yeah.

Dr. Paul Hoard:
Well that makes me go back to the, I think a word you threw out earlier, Monique, which is trust that there’s, what do we not trust in? What is it we don’t? Do we not trust each other? Is there a system? Where is this because the lack of trust I think is there, and you’re saying, Doug, this lack of commitment of a marriage or if we want to use that metaphor, whatever, but there’s not a trust. And I think that’s what I hear us trying to name, that there’s this appearance of connection. There’s this appearance of community and there’s this lack of trust when you get into maybe the inner workings of us as faculty where there’s sort of, we’re made sense of it that all of us in the psychology side, we’re clinicians. So we’re sort of also have our private practice and we’re professors. And so there’s a way that I think that’s also an excuse of, are we actually in on this thing? Are we actually there? We actually committed to what this is, and do we trust each other? Do we trust the institution? Do we trust? I don’t know what, but there’s that, I think a lack of trust that comes out where we’ll perform for the kids,

But behind closed doors, what else happens that I think we’re trying to figure out?

Dr. Monique Gadson:
And I think that’s exactly what it is. It is a trying to figure it out that in and of itself is going to require a degree of emotional investment and energy for that matter, that some may not have, some entity, some parts of the system may not have not want to have for various reasons. And I really don’t even, I’m hopeful that when I say that, I don’t say that in a way that sounds like it’s trying to villainize someone. Not that, I mean, I just think that these things are legitimate and I think that they are real. And as I so often say in classes, especially when we do consider systemic thinking, we are reflecting something from somewhere, some grander, macro, eco, whatever else, old system, right? We’re reflecting that. And so often, like I say to the students, if we are supposed to be agents of change and training individuals to be agents of change, if we cannot enact it, then there’s a problem. There’s a problem.

We are stuck somewhere. We’re colluding with some self-deception perhaps or something that is not happening. And I do believe that part of it is the, I know you guys use the language of the fantasy, where I think that there is this fantasy that the outcome is a kumbaya-ish feel. And I say to the students sometimes that I don’t know that that’s necessarily where we are trying to get for the next step. That’s a lot to try to accomplish when we live in times that are so extremely polarizing. That’s a lot to try to get your arms around and contain and try to accomplish. And I am saying, what do you do just in the next moment, like your next step? What do you do with that dynamic between you and that person or your client that you’re sitting in front of?

I think that there is, I think that we’re just paralyzed in place. We’re stuck in place, and I do believe that part of that is that societal, emotional process. I think we keep transmitting stuff and I think that that is going to continue to be transmitted because majority of humans want the quick fix. And usually these types of issues are not quick fixes. You have to be in it for the long haul. That’s why in part is important for an institution, an individual, a leader, to have a non-anxious presence. Somebody has got to be steady when all of the cultural and emotional and educational and all the other things are going to be up in arms and changing as many times as we can blink in a day, something, someone has to be that beacon to say, I stand and I shine and I don’t change from that. Something has got to continue to call to say, here’s the way, this is the way, come on, this is the way. Yes, the water is choppy. Yes. That’s a scary conversation to have. Yes, that is a hard thing to name. Yes. That’s a hard thing to face. Yeah, that’s a hard thing to even confess, whatever it is. But if you have, and we know this, y’all know we know this when we talk about that, co-regulation, so if we have that steady presence, that non-anxious presence, perhaps that can

Be securing enough where people will be willing to say, okay, there’s a journey ahead, but it’s going to start with one step. Right.

Dr. Doug Shirley:
Monique, thank you. There’s a stillness in me that I did not have when I came, so thank you.

Dr. Monique Gadson:
Thank you all. I appreciate you.

Dr. Doug Shirley:
Alright.

The post Ghosts & Shadows Conversation Series: Podcast with Guest Dr. Monique Gadson appeared first on The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology.

The Seattle School鈥檚 alumni, current students, faculty, staff, and the Seattle community at large are invited to witness and celebrate the bold, thoughtful, and creative work of our graduating theology students. This in-person event will take place in the Large Classroom where audience members can view the symposium presentations. Refreshments will be provided. Videos of each presentation will be posted after the event on our blog.

As a response to student feedback expressing a desire to engage the event online, the Student Council has collaborated with Academics to help host the event on Zoom. Please see the weekly community newsletter for the Zoom link.

Each of the presenters is a candidate for graduation at The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology in either our Master of Divinity or Master of Arts in Theology & Culture.

The post Integrative Project Symposium 2023 appeared first on The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology.

What did you study at The Seattle School?听

I came to The Seattle School to study therapy, but once I was immersed in the program and my artistry became pronounced, I realized I wasn’t interested in being a therapist, at least not in the traditional way, and so I changed my degree to ) where my thesis was on 鈥淭he Body as Storyteller: Trauma, Body, and Integration,鈥� graduating in 2014. I had always been an artist and writer at my core, it had been the way I processed past pain, and so I wanted to help others do the same through writing, art, and the creative process.听

How did you develop your book mentorship work?

In some ways, I’ve always been a creative guide. I remember creating my first collection of short stories and poems about me and my friends and what we had gone through so far in our lives. I printed it out, stapled it together, and called it 鈥淭he Stories We Dare To Tell鈥�. I still have this little book and keep it on my writing desk for inspiration. Later on in college, I began hosting safe haven circles for women to write their trauma stories and share them. It always felt natural to me, to curate creative healing spaces, and even though I took detours from time to time with career moves, it always led me right back here to this central story work.听

After launching multiple online and print literary publications, I kept seeing a need for book coaching and editing, specifically with a focus that was trauma-性视界rmed. I developed a methodology that allows for customized book coaching services meeting folks where they are to help them craft, write, and edit their sacred first draft from start to finish in a kind and creatively consensual way. At this point, I have published over a thousand writers in my literary magazines, worked with hundreds on their book writing, and created programs to help people dive into the healing journey through creative recovery via the arts and writing.听

These days, I offer mostly 1:1 book coaching and editing, specialized group programs, and creative resources through my own writing.

What’s your favorite part about your work? Anything you鈥檇 like to share about your process?

Oh man, where to begin? I would start by saying it’s witnessing another own their voice and creativity for the first time, as well as helping them understand that this process of writing and creating is truly sacred because, with every word we write and every art piece we create, we are advocating for the young creative within us.

My passion for storytelling began at a young age with my own creative journey in writing and art as a form of healing trauma. Before there were linear stories to tell, I had poetry, metaphor, and my messy artistic process. I truly believe this process is at the heart of our healing and creative recovery. It鈥檚 not always about the end product, but who we will become in the process of creating it. My hope, always, is to help folks embrace the messy process of becoming and learn to heal their stories along the way.

How does your training at The Seattle School 性视界rm your work? Are there any academic/formational touchstones from your graduate education that continue to 性视界rm your work now?听

My studies at The Seattle School were foundational to my own writing and art, as well as the services I offer to others. My background in narrative therapy and trauma studies, especially as it relates to the body as a storyteller allows me to hold space for my clients with kindness, compassion, and curiosity, and more importantly, help them learn to do that for themselves.

There are so many experiences that changed my life through TSS, but the two that come to the surface for me now in regard to my work were The Artist Residency and Story Work through Dan Allender’s teachings. Both helped me name the hard truths of my story, begin to really listen to my younger self, and create from the bare bones of my life.

What else would you like to share with us?!

I published my first poetry collection in 2021 called For Women Who Roar and am currently writing my memoir Flood Days to be released by 2024 along with a few art projects in tow. Life is such a wild ride, one that has made me dizzy at times, but it has been so entirely worth it. I have a number of ways for folks to work with me at and read my writing at .听

The post Alumni Spotlight: Q&A with Megan Febuary, MATC ’14 appeared first on The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology.

I want to celebrate with you. And I want you to celebrate with us. As we mark the 25-Year Anniversary of The Seattle School, I know鈥�better than most鈥�we wouldn鈥檛 have made it 25 years without you . . . and the wildness, heartache, and longing, a willingness to suffer and an openness to be awed, the hurt, the healing, the hope, the struggle to love of God and neighbor that marks each of us peculiarly and all of us together as we鈥檝e created Western Seminary- Seattle/Mars Hill @ Western Seminary/Mars Hill Graduate School/The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. My prayer is that there is a part of each of us that has been forever transformed by being a part of this community, a part of each other, as alumni, that shapes the way we serve those we鈥檝e been called to love. You are invited, dear friends, to two events to remember together, celebrate together, pray together, and, together anticipate the next 25 years to come as we look toward Jubilee. . .

25-Year Anniversary Benefit Dinner鈥揂pril 21, 2023, 5:30-9:30 pm
At this fundraising event, we will gather at 2501 Elliott Ave with faculty, staff, alumni, donors, and board members from across the years around good food, good drink, celebration and storytelling. Our goal for the evening is to raise $200,000 to invest in the next 25 years of shaping healers and rebuilders for the restoration of our churches, communities, neighborhoods, and world. You can read more about the event here.

Day of Celebration: Looking Toward Jubilee鈥揓une 3, 2023, times vary
Our culminating celebration is the Day of Celebration, a day full of gatherings for faculty, staff, students, alumni, and our families across the country (and around the world!) to celebrate 25 years of The Seattle School, our shared story and our impact on each other鈥檚 lives, and where we have known God鈥檚 faithfulness throughout it all. Homecoming gatherings will be occurring around the nation at our chapter locations and, at the Red Brick building, a variety of happy hour events, art, and concerts will culminate with our annual Spring Banquet and conclude with a dance in the Commons. For more 性视界rmation as the date gets closer and details are finalized, take a look at the event page. For now please Save the Day!

As Dr. Cornel West has said, 鈥淲e are who we are because somebody loved us.鈥� Dear friend, we wouldn鈥檛 be who we are without all of you and the Spirit who births life in impossible places. Please, come celebrate with us, who we have been and who we are being called to become.

I am so grateful for you.

Peace. paul

Upcoming Events

Let鈥檚 celebrate all that has come before and what lies ahead!

25-Year Anniversary Benefit Dinner鈥揂pril 21, 2023, 5:30-9:30 pm
Celebration, storytelling & fundraising: learn more and register here.

Last Call for Sponsorships 鈥� & join us as a sponsor!

Day of Celebration & Spring Banquet鈥揓une 3, 2023
Save the Day for this culminating celebration here in Seattle and around the country. For details, keep an eye on the听event page.

Share Your Story & Photos
Alumni, your stories are part of the story of The Seattle School, and we would love to hear your memories and see your photos. Please share your stories and images through . Stories and images may be woven into one of the upcoming 25 Year celebration events. Questions? Please email marketing@theseattleschool.edu.

Discount for Alumni at The Seattle School Bookstore
Celebrate The Seattle School’s 25-Year Anniversary with 25% off any purchase at through June 24. Use coupon code Alumni25 at checkout!

Learn More about 25 Year Events

Alumni Month

Thank you to all alumni who have volunteered to participate in our re-boot of Alumni Month! Please keep your eyes out for further echoes and news from these conversations. Thank you. Alumni Month has historically been a time when small groupings of faculty, staff, and graduating students have ventured forth from The Seattle School to meet alumni for rich conversation – we are led as an institution by you! If you would like to participate and haven’t been in touch with me yet please feel free to follow up so I can note your interest and connect with you鈥� at jskillman@theseattleschool.edu.

Alumni Spotlights

Mallory Redmond, MATC 鈥�13: 鈥淲ild and holy work鈥�
Alumni Quad member Mallory Redmond MATC 鈥�13 recently shared with us more about her experiences, insights, and gratitude, including her journey since graduation and the formation and preparation she received for 鈥渨ild and holy work.鈥�
Read More: Mallory

Mary DeJong, MATC 鈥�17 & Sarah Steinke, MACP 鈥�19: Pilgrimage to Iona
Mary DeJong, MATC 鈥�17 and Sarah Steinke, MACP 鈥�19 bring their training, gifts, and strengths to their collaborative work, as they guide pilgrimages to Iona, Scotland, where travelers and seekers explore the rich heritage of Celtic spirituality and sacred rewilding practices, synching the body and the soul in this journey.
Read More: Mary & Sarah

Megan Febuary, MATC ’14: For Women Who Roar
Megan Febuary, MATC 鈥�14, told us how her studies at The Seattle School have been foundational to her work as a creative coach helping women share their stories and heal from trauma through writing and art. Her first book was published in 2021: For Women Who Roar.
Read More: Megan

Alumni News

Congratulations to

• Dr. Lacy Clark Ellman MACS 鈥�12 gave her dissertation defense in November 2022: it was on the topic of millenial exvangelicals and their journey 鈥渂ack home鈥� to spirituality.
• Dr. Mary Jane Wilt MAC 鈥�05 finished her PhD-MFT in September. She distilled her 282-page dissertation down to a 30-page article titled, “Differentiation of Family System Inventory (DoFSI): Development and Content Validation of a New Qualitative Family Intervention and Evaluation Tool” which has been accepted for publication in the Australian and New Zealand Journal of Family Therapy!
• Cairn Journey Yakey MACP ’16 (formerly Melissa Marie) will be presenting at this March!
• Alumni Supervisors: Congrats to Erika Baxter MAC 鈥�04, MDiv 鈥�06, Terry Bohn MACP 鈥�13, Rachel Elder MACP 鈥�17, Jenn Frechette MACP 鈥�10, Melissa Glenn MACP 鈥�12, Nicole Greenwald MACP 鈥�11, D. Michael Louderback ’13, Erin Pierson MACP 鈥�11, Palmer Richardson MACP 鈥�19, Jeanette Scott MACP 鈥�08, Maren Telsey MACP 鈥�16, Jennifer Wade MACP 鈥�13, MaryJane Wilt MAC 鈥�05!

Launches

• Dan Cumberland MATC 鈥�12 six months ago launched and created , a tool for repurposing content and creating viral videos. Learn more about his . He also launched his first business accelerator in February: Bootstrap without Burnout, a 90-day program to help founders build businesses.
• Congratulations to all our alumni at who recently opened a new location in Kirkland, Washington! Alumni include Rachel Lund MACP鈥�13, John Lembo MACP鈥�15, Shannon Wittevrongel MACP鈥�15, Sarah Brandabur MACP鈥�18, Katie Carroll MACP 鈥�22, and Cindy Burnett MACP鈥�22.
• Congratulations to Liz Pritchard MACP 鈥�07 and wife Jessica Stuenzi MACP 鈥�06 who recently founded ! They currently offer medication management with plans to add mental health therapists and student training/internships within the next year. After graduating, Jessica pursued and completed her Psychiatric Nurse Practitioner degree, while Liz has been working in community mental health as a therapist and in management.

Alumni Offerings

• Jenny Wade MACP 鈥�13 hopes to create a 鈥淪omatic Skills for Therapists鈥� virtual course, where she will give clinicians practical tools to create energetic boundaries and release secondary trauma. Here is a video offering: .
• : Check the website for Tax Workshops! is coming up in May. And Tender Wild Retreat on Whidbey Island is in October.
• Dreaming of Writing a Book? Imagine a year from now finally calling yourself an author. Doors are now open to apply for 1:1 Book Coaching with trauma-性视界rmed Book Coach and Editor, Megan Febuary MATC 鈥�14. . Keep your eyes out for a beautiful interview with her coming out later this year to learn more!

Do you have any news? Let us know!

Community News

Self-Facilitated Resilience Retreat from the Center for Transforming Engagement
We all live by rhythms, whether intentionally crafted or habitual. It can be hard to take the time to step back from everyday responsibilities to reflect and make changes to those habits. That’s why we’re pleased to share the free Self-Facilitated Resilience Retreat to help you foster practices of resilience. It is a flexible, self-paced mini-retreat that can be done on your own time, at your own pace, wherever you are. Be sure to . Check out our Instagram account @transformingengagement to hear Director Kate Davis MDiv ’15, talk about how to use this guide and why we believe it’s so important.

Seattle School Day of Scholarship 2023
On January 14, 2023, The Seattle School held a community-wide Day of Scholarship and the following alumni shared their work: Danielle S. Castillejo MACP 鈥�20, Kate Rae Davis MDiv 鈥�15, Dr. Lauren D. Sawyer MATC 鈥�14, Jocelyn Skillman MACP 鈥�13, and Dr. Maryjane Wilt, MAC 鈥�05. Affiliate Faculty and Common Curriculum Coordinator Dr. Kj Swanson, MDiv 鈥�10, coordinated the event along with Dr. Paul Hoard. To learn more about the session speakers and poster gallery presenters, please take a look at the blog post.

Allender Center Offerings
The Allender Center is looking forward to a busy spring, including the much-anticipated , the first-ever in North Carolina, an , and Recovery Weeks for and . and join us as we continue to foster the work of healing and redemption in individuals, families, and communities.

Job Openings at The Seattle School
The Seattle School regularly posts teaching positions in the graduate programs at Current Openings: /human-resources/current-openings/. Each spring, we post open Adjunct Faculty, Listening Lab, and Assistant Instructor positions for AY 23-24, and we welcome Alumni applicants for these open instructional team positions. If you have teaching or facilitating experience and are interested in working with us, keep an eye out for new postings in the coming months, starting in听April and May.

Upcoming Trainings

(credit: 4 CE credit hours)
If you missed the January opportunity: Professor Paul Hoard, Ph.D., LMHC is leading a live online training with Seth Wescott, LMLP on Thursday April 27, 2023 from 11:00 am to 3:30 pm ET (8:00 am to 12:30 pm PT). This training introduces the Integrated Developmental Model, a relationship-based approach to supervising professionals who work with individuals who have been sexually violent.

In this 3-hour online CEU presentation, Dr. Paul Hoard will explore the clinical significance of erotic content in the course of therapy and how it can be addressed in a way that maintains ethical boundaries.

Job Opening

REST, Real Escape from the Sex Trade, has .

Community Podcasts

• features Director Kate Rae Davis, MDiv 鈥�15, and President and Provost J. Derek McNeil discussing Organizational Identity including conversations with leaders from churches and corporate cultures.
• Looking toward Jubilee Miniseries: In celebration of our 25th year as an institution, Dr. J. Derek McNeil, President, invited Dr. Dan Allender, Founding President and Professor of Counseling Psychology, and Dr. Keith Anderson, President Emeritus, into a conversation on the past, present, and future of our calling and community. Listen as they describe the original hopes and dreams from our founding days and the continuing values of engaging in discourse, Scripture, and stories.
• Enjoy ! Co-host Rachael Clinton Chen MDiv 鈥�10 has recently .

Faculty Podcasts

• Dr. Paul Hoard, Assistant Professor of Counseling Psychology, and sister Billie Hoard joined The New Evangelicals Podcast for 鈥溾�欌��. They discuss how disgust is emotionalized and how the church and far right media weaponize disgust against the LGBTQIA+ community.
• Doug Shirley MDiv 鈥�10, Associate Professor of Counseling Psychology, appeared again recently on the ReConceive Podcast and offered his vital perspective and research on 鈥�.鈥�

Alumni Podcasts

• Meredith Dancause MDiv 鈥�08 and Steve Dancause MACS 鈥�08 co-host a podcast: 鈥�鈥�(out of The Well Church in Edmond, OK)
• Jasmine Svare MACP 鈥�14 hosts: 鈥�鈥�
• Check out the podcast from Bryan Nixon MACP 鈥�07 (and newest episode linked here)
• Listen to Dan Cumberland MACS 鈥�12 in Podcast
• Do you have a podcast to share? Please let Jocelyn Skillman know at jskillman@theseattleschool.edu.

Alumni Community Audit Voucher & Reduced Tuition

With more online courses available now, you won鈥檛 want to miss your opportunity to redeem your annual community audit voucher! As lifelong learners, our Alumni may听 join a class for free once a year with the annual Community Audit Voucher. Auditing a class is different from earning graduate credit or continuing education hours for a course, however, CEUs may be purchased for $30/seat hour. In addition, all non-degree seeking alumni in need of additional course credits receive a discounted tuition rate of $500 per credit.听

View the 2022-2023 course schedule to get an idea of what you may be interested in. To register for a course using the Community Audit Voucher, please email Kelsey Wallace at academics@theseattleschool.edu for details and class availability.

Alumni Announcements & News

If you would like to place an announcement or share news in our upcoming quarterly alumni newsletter, please email Jocelyn Skillman at jskillman@theseattleschool.edu. Thank you!

Alumni Therapist Directory – We are excited to be offering an updated list of therapist referrals from our alumni! Would you like to add your 性视界rmation to the list? Please fill out this Google form. This list can be found on our Seattle School website: /alumni-therapist-list/

Facebook – At you can offer and gather professional resources, promote your own events and more, learn of upcoming events and 性视界rmation, and connect with fellow alumni. It has been an active and vibrant place for communication.

LinkedIn – On our you can connect and network with other alumni. Find a range of 性视界rmation relating to your professional life. Opportunities for networking events, jobs, CEUs, and general career advice can all be found in this private group. Promote an event, share a resource, or network about jobs in your area.

The post Continuing Conversations March 2023 appeared first on The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology.

Friends.
This year, as we mark the 25th year of Western Seminary-Seattle / MHGS / The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology, we are moved by you and the beautiful work you do across the country and around the globe. As you continue to serve those in your communities, I want you to be aware of a value that has long been with us and that we, finally, have found some meaningful articulation of:

Discourse Statement:

In an abiding belief鈥攂ased on the witness of Scripture鈥攖hat all people are image bearers of God, The Seattle School affirms the Belovedness of all people, including differences in ability, race, age, ethnicity, economic status, creed, gender identity, and sexual orientation. The Seattle School chooses an intentional posture of dialogue and engagement, with a desire to be a context that bridges differing traditions, perspectives, and cultures toward the possibility of encountering the generous hospitality for all people found in the reign of God. In a divided and broken world, we seek to train people to be agents of hope and healing for individuals and communities. We are a community seeking to recognize, reflect, and engage the dignity, agency, and mutuality of all people, especially those who have been marginalized.

The Board of Trustees voted unanimously to accept this statement in the Spring of 2022. In the weeks and months to come, faculty, staff, and students are seeking to deepen this value by discerning and articulating the shared practices that express it 鈥� in the classrooms, in staff and faculty meetings, in how we share governance, and as we engage the partners in our community. In so many different ways, you have led us in this posture and continue to do so.

Thank you for creating The Seattle School with us these past 25 years. As we look toward jubilee, we anticipate how you will continue to lead us in 25 years to come鈥� as you seek to serve God and neighbor in your contexts.

Please know, we are praying for you. And that’s not just talk, we really are. If there is anything more we can do to join and partner with you in the days ahead, please let us know. We would love to do so.

Peace. paul

Alumni News

• Chris Bruno MACP 鈥�10 joined Dan Allender to discuss his new book Sage: A Man鈥檚 Guide into His Second Passage on . 听
• Tara Hubbard MATC 鈥�22 has an exhibit of collages in the Commons on campus this fall. Learn more about her journey in creativity and integration.
• Congratulations to Michael Louderback MACP 鈥�13 who is officially now a Washington State Approved Supervisor! Are you a Supervisor? Please let us know as we begin gathering names for a shared list – email jskillman@theseattleschool.edu听
• 听Do you have any news? Let us know!听

Community News

Seattle School Day of Scholarship: January 14th, 2023

The Seattle School is hosting its first community-wide Day of Scholarship, open to all students, alumni, staff, and faculty as contributors and guests. Capping off the 2023 Winter Residency, Day of Scholarship will take place on campus Saturday, January 14th, 2023 from 8:30 am-1:00 pm. The event鈥檚 aim is to connect Seattle School community members to the wider disciplinary and interdisciplinary conversations we are having as an institution. The day will begin with Poster Presentations, an opportunity to browse and see at-a-glance some of the research, works in progress, and key questions community members are engaging. We are inviting research poster contributions from all corners of our institution, alumni included. Posters can comprise sharing about an initiative your center or team has developed, a project already underway, or other relevant research. Poster presenters will be on site for 性视界rmal conversation during the morning session, with their work on display for the whole day.

Sub性视界s are due December 1st, 2022 on this . Access this for 性视界rmation about research as well as poster templates.

Questions? Contact Dr. Kj Swanson kswanson@theseattleschool.edu or Dr. Paul Hoard phoard@theseattleschool.edu听

Request for Alumni Hosts

Calling all folks who have a spare room (or two): If you are located in the Seattle area, we would love your help with hosting a low-residency student. The 2023 dates include January 11th – 14th and/or April 26th – 30th. Your level of volunteer hosting is optional and dependent on your availability: the offer of a restful safe space is what’s most appreciated! Contact Ligaya Avila at lavila@theseattleschool.edu to get connected.

More about Low-Residency Programs

In 2021, The Seattle School began offering a low-residency program where students attend online classes and in-person residencies. The MA degrees 鈥� both MATC and MACP鈥� have become more accessible through this new modality. Students from across North America and as far as Beirut, Greece, and Paris have enrolled at The Seattle School. For the residencies, students travel to Seattle and we have the privilege of hosting them on campus for a four-day program with interdisciplinary teaching, listening labs, and community-wide events.听 To learn more about the residencies, check out this page

Senior Scholars

The Seattle School has announced that Esther Lightcap Meek, Ph.D., will be our inaugural Senior Scholar. A Senior Scholar is a distinguished academic, teacher, or practitioner whose primary work is within the broad field of theological study, or who is engaged in the interdisciplinary work of integrating theology and the social sciences. If you鈥檇 like access to the recording from the Senior Scholar welcome reception on Monday, November 7th, featuring a lecture by Dr. Meek followed by Q&A from the audience, please contact Daniel Rusco at drusco@theseattleschool.edu.

Chimes

Reminiscing Alert! To have your own nine.noon.three chimes:听 to your phone and curate moments of peace with chimes wherever you are! Find this file also on our Community Rhythms page. (For more reminiscence about the chimes, check out this 2015听 blog post, The Call to Prayer, written by Kate Davis MDiv 鈥�15 ).

In Case You Missed It (ICYMI)

• Alumni Therapist Directory: We are excited to be offering an updated list of therapist referrals from our alumni! Would you like to add your 性视界rmation to the list? .听 This list can be found on our Seattle School website.
• Virtual Care Package from Jocelyn – Jocelyn Skillman, Supervisor of Alumni Outreach, is creating a new clinician virtual care package for folks launching private practices or entering phases of vocation 鈥� with comprehensive counseling-related resources related to supervision, business management, and more! For example, we include amazing work on practice building and more! If you have any interest in reviewing or adding to this work please contact Jocelyn: jskillman@theseattleschool.edu.
• is a that can help you name the causes of burnout, work towards recovery, and identify sources of support. If you are a pastor, congregant, or someone who works with pastors, we encourage you to to learn ways you can support those in leadership positions.听
• Course Development for New Online Platform: The Seattle School is expanding learning offerings on a new online platform, and we are seeking like-minded folks (alumni!) to partner with us. Visit this website to learn more about this new online platform, and how to propose a course, webinar, or training for development. Currently there is specific interest in receiving psychology and counseling offerings. More 性视界rmation about the proposal process can be found on the website.

Upcoming Training & Continuing Education Opportunities

Wisdom Tree Collective:

Kasey Hitt, MHGS CSD 鈥�05, MDiv 鈥�06 co-founded a non-profit last year called which brings together spiritual directors to help train others and offer retreats, groups, and seminars.听 Its School of Spiritual Direction offers a 2-year, online Wisdom-based Certificate in Spiritual Direction.听 Those going through the program are paired with a Spiritual Direction Mentor who journeys with them as a resource and encouragement throughout the two years.听 Ron McClelland, MHGS MACP 鈥�05, CSD 鈥�05 is one of the Spiritual Direction Mentors. And entering into her second year as part of WTC鈥檚 first cohort of 9, Amy Hammett, MHGS MACP 鈥�07 is offering spiritual direction while working on an integrative paper that weaves together her contemplative training with her experience as a therapist, wrestling with the church, and having healing, sex-positive conversations that particularly impact the parenting of daughters.听 Wisdom Tree Collective鈥檚 application process for the Fall 2023 Cohort of 9 people is opening this week! More about the certification program as well as retreats, groups, and classes, can be found on the .

RiverTree Healing Arts:

Katie Lin, MACP 2020 offers听 For clients who are interested in body-based work to complement their already established therapy, BodyTalk 鈥渋ntegrates Western medicine, Chinese medicine, and depth psychology, and uses a gentle, non-invasive form of neuromuscular biofeedback to directly access the body’s main priorities for wholeness. It can be especially useful in working with trauma, as well as folks who are experiencing a combination of emotional and physical concerns.鈥� Contact Katie and learn more !听

Dreaming of Writing a Book?

Imagine a year from now finally calling yourself an author. Doors are now open to apply for 1:1 Book Coaching with trauma-性视界rmed Book Coach and Editor, Megan Febuary MACP 鈥�13. .听

Resilient Leaders: Practices for Life听

to help you focus on one core element of building resilience: Practices. equips leaders like you 鈥� doing good work on behalf of your community 鈥撎� to restore your inner resilience and live into your purpose by cultivating intentional practices to support and sustain your life. If you are a counselor, therapist, pastor, chaplain, ministry volunteer, a changemaker in a non-profit, or a social entrepreneur 鈥� Practices for Life is uniquely designed for you.

For any alumni who enroll, or who refer someone who enrolls, you will receive a free self-guided retreat box!

Registration opens December 1st, 2022 and the program begins February 4th, 2023.听

Training: How to Effectively Supervise Professionals Treating Individuals Who Perpetuate Sexual Violence

Professor Paul Hoard, Ph.D., LMHC is leading a live online training with Seth Wescott, LMLP on Thursday January 5, 2023 from 11:00 am to 3:30 pm ET (8:00 am to 12:30 pm PT). This introduces the Integrated Developmental Model, a relationship-based approach to supervising professionals who work with individuals who have been sexually violent. Participants will learn how to enhance the professional development of new clinicians they supervise while educating them on the importance of self-care for clinicians who work in the stressful environment of sexual abuse prevention and the treatment of sexual violence perpetrators. The training will also explore the ways in which power and privilege impact the supervisory context, and how supervisors can identify their own vulnerabilities and concerns.

Allender Center Offerings

The Allender Center will have a busy spring 2023 including a in Richmond, Texas and a in Ferndale, Washington.听 Take a here!

Community Podcasts

• Season 2 features Director Kate Rae Davis, MDiv 鈥�15听 and long-time Instructor at The Seattle School, Rose Madrid-Swetman, interviewing psychologists, mental health experts, and current and former clergy, about burnout — what it is, what causes it, how it can be healed and prevented.听
• Enjoy the !

Faculty Podcast Appearances

• Rev. Dr. Angela Parker discussed “ with the hosts of The Bible for Normal People podcast.听
• Dr. Doug Shirley joined the Reconceive podcast to talk about building supportive relationships on 鈥�鈥�
• . Christianity Today鈥檚 鈥淭he Rise & Fall of Mars Hill鈥� podcast series added a conversation with Dr. Dan Allender about the complexities of narcissism and trauma.

Alumni Podcasts

• Meredith Dancause MDiv 鈥�08 and Steve Dancause MACS 鈥�08 co-host a podcast: 鈥�鈥�(out of The Well Church in Edmond, OK)
• Jasmine Svare MACP 鈥�14 hosts: 鈥�鈥�
• Check out the podcast from Bryan Nixon MACP 鈥�07 (and newest episode linked here)
• Listen to Dan Cumberland MACS 鈥�12 in Podcast
• Do you have a podcast to share? Please let Jocelyn Skillman know at jskillman@theseattleschool.edu.

A Book Release Event with Resmaa Menakem: The Quaking of America

Reflections from Danielle Castillejo MACP 鈥�20

Note: Author, therapist, and licensed social worker Resmaa Menakem stopped by The Seattle School this summer on tour for his latest book, The Quaking of America (video of event). Here Danielle Castillejo MACP 鈥�20 shares her experience:

Over the past 3 years, I held Resmaa Menakem’s book My Grandmother鈥檚 Hands close to me – whether in my backpack, or next to my desk as I work with clients or groups in the therapeutic context. His ability to create language around experiences that feel wordless, feels important to hold near. During the pandemic and quarantine times, like many others, I often relied on social media clips from some of the justice leaders I respect, including Resmaa Menakem. A wise woman has encouraged me to be “mentored” or “shaped” by those who are close in conversation with me, as well as those who are leading in more distant spheres.听

The event energy was collaborative. I sensed in Resmaa’s smile and familiar engagement with Dr. Derek McNeil that this man is who he says he is. He often engaged participants in the “audience” in the same way he writes and talks on other platforms. We were invited to be active – embodied participants in Resmaa’s presentation. After the presentation, I stood in line with my husband, Luis. When we arrived to greet one another, Resmaa Menakem’s warmth emanated, and there was a sense of belonging. Belonging is so rare. It is a gift I remember. The “event” was a place I belonged and for that, in continued tumultuous times, I continue to be grateful.听

Convocation Update & Greeting from Jocelyn

By Jocelyn Skillman MACP ’13, Supervisor of Alumni Outreach

We were overwhelmed with the incredible presence of alumni at Convocation this year as we surrounded our incoming class with support and prayer, dedicating ourselves as a community to serve with humility in the effort to embody and perfect 性视界al Love in our need-full world. Vast light poured in through the exquisite stained glass of Saint Mark鈥檚. Faculty and staff were adorned in robes, and we processed with flags and incense. We sang in tandem and prayed as a group at the front of the cathedral. There was a very palpable relief and joy in the air鈥搗ibrations of renewal鈥搕hat we were together, embodied, close and committed to one another. Our hearts resounded as we sang.

Each alumni was given a yellow rose to pin or tuck at will, and the children and spouses of alumni carried roses also, demonstrating to our incoming students the path forward through school and beyond into continued communion. Convocation was such an immense gift, a reunion of heart, soul, and body among a huge group of alumni. Look for more invitations to join community this year during our 25th celebration.

Alumni Community Audit Voucher & Reduced Tuition

With more online courses available now, you won鈥檛 want to miss your opportunity to redeem your annual community audit voucher! As lifelong learners, our Alumni may听 join a class for free once a year with the annual Community Audit Voucher. Auditing a class is different from earning graduate credit or continuing education hours for a course, however, CEUs may be purchased for $30/seat hour. In addition, all non-degree seeking alumni in need of additional course credits receive a discounted tuition rate of $500 per credit.听

View the 2022-2023 course schedule to get an idea of what you may be interested in. To register for a course using the Community Audit Voucher, please email Kelsey Wallace at academics@theseattleschool.edu for details and class availability.

Current Openings at The Seattle School

Small-Group Facilitators & Writers Wanted听

Center for Transforming Engagement is currently seeking small-group Conveners ( to view job description) and contributors to . Both are paid positions. If you are interested in being trained as a small-group facilitator or writing for Christ & Cascadia, please reach out to us via email to begin a conversation: transforming@theseattleschool.edu.

For more opportunities 鈥撎齝heck out Current Openings at The Seattle School. Please share this 性视界rmation with anyone you know who may be a good fit for our community.

Alumni Announcements & News

If you would like to place an announcement or share news in our upcoming quarterly alumni newsletter, please email Jocelyn Skillman at jskillman@theseattleschool.edu. Thank you!

Facebook – At you can offer and gather professional resources, promote your own events and more, learn of upcoming events and 性视界rmation, and connect with fellow alumni. It has been an active and vibrant place for communication.

LinkedIn – On our you can connect and network with other alumni. Find a range of 性视界rmation relating to your professional life. Opportunities for networking events, jobs, CEUs, and general career advice can all be found in this private group. Promote an event, share a resource, or network about jobs in your area.

The post Continuing Conversations November 2022 appeared first on The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology.

The Writing Center offers free one-on-one consultations for learners enrolled in our graduate degree programs. Writing Center Consultants Phil Doud and Cristin Fenzel are available year-round for 40-min Zoom appointments.

In the following conversation, Cristin and Phil interview each other, sharing their own ways of working and why they value supporting students within every stage of the writing process. As you read their conversation, you might recognize some of your own questions, habits, and challenges, as well as some tips. Cristin and Phil would love to meet you; click here to schedule an appointment.

Which practices help you get and stay motivated to write?

Phil: Depending on what I鈥檓 writing, it can be helpful for me to get my ideas out in a non-paper-format way first. I use a lot of notecards and dry-erase boards. The windows of my house are not uncommonly covered with dry-erase marker.

Cristin: I love it! Like that movie 鈥�

Phil: Yeah, sometimes I do feel a little Beautiful Mind 鈥� like my neighbors see me frantically scribbling formulas on my window. Having ADHD, consistency is not my strong suit. When I want to calm myself down to settle into reading, that takes an energy shift for me. I try to do a lot to block out stimulation. So it鈥檚 often turning on very faint, wordless music, or a white noise machine. It鈥檚 closing the door, or sometimes clearing my desktop.

Cristin: I can definitely relate to that. I am such an idea person. I could blissfully collage ideas together all day long and never write an actual complete sentence. It鈥檚 almost like when I鈥檓 drafting, I am anticipating the discomfort of cutting off my ideas, and the pain of the sentence on the page not matching the sentence in my head, and that is super distracting. I do find that if I write first thing in the morning, the part of my brain that does this is still somewhat asleep.

I also like to listen to music when I write. It generally has to be wordless music 鈥� ambient, Bach, Mozart, or Binaural Beats for focus. Lately, I have been writing to classical Indian music.

What is your favorite thing about working at The Seattle School?

Phil: The people who choose to come to The Seattle School, and are accepted, and choose to continue after they realize how hard it is 鈥� that’s a level of investment that is really different than, let’s say, when I was tutoring high school students whose parents were making them come to the session. It鈥檚 the difference between needing to do the assignment versus, 鈥淚鈥檓 trying to figure this thing out because it’s going to frame who I’m going to become and the work I鈥檓 going to do for the rest of my life.鈥�

Sometimes as Seattle School students 鈥� I’ll include myself, since I鈥檓 also an alum 鈥� we go too far into that, in that every paper feels like it needs to be determinative of my existential crises, satisfy my relationship with my parents, and rectify what I think about God and the church and society in like four pages or something. But, those questions are being asked, and I appreciate the level of depth and engagement.

Cristin: I was going to say the same thing. It鈥檚 a privilege to work with people who care deeply and who are asking big questions. Also, I feel like I learn so much from every writer. I learn about fascinating stuff that I never even would have thought you could write a paper about.

Phil: Even with 15 years of doing this kind of work, I am still regularly floored by things that I’m learning and the work that students are doing.

Any words of encouragement that you鈥檇 like to offer students as they start writing assignments this year?

Phil: I didn’t do well academically in my first year at The Seattle School. I think sometimes people will discount themselves and say, 鈥淚’m not a good writer, this isn’t something that comes naturally for me,鈥� and assume that the reverse is the case for me. I have gotten feedback that I鈥檓 a good writer in general, but academic writing was not where I was getting the good feedback. I also didn’t know I had ADHD until I had graduated and was already doing work.

So it was really hard for me, but the process of learning and growing in it helped me to love it in a different way. I want to encourage folks who think of themselves as good writers, or as not writers at all, that part of being a student is cultivating and developing writing that both works for you and for what’s needed for the assignment or the school.

Cristin: I love that. You’re very good at connecting with people, and being their cheerleader, and giving them confidence. O.K., the first answer that came to my mind … when I thought about it … I decided it was a really annoying thing to say. So now I don’t want to say it.

Phil: No, say it!

Cristin: I want to say everything is process. Everything moves the ball forward. Even this whole giant paper you had to turn in 鈥� even though it might feel finite 鈥� it鈥檚 just process. It鈥檚 to help you explore what you think about this topic. It鈥檚 to help others understand what you think. It鈥檚 a starting point for conversation. But it鈥檚 easy for me to say that. I’m not the one being graded, and for students this is often a high-stakes process. That鈥檚 why I think my answer is annoying.

Phil: There’s a line echoing through my head eternally from Dr. Chelle Stearns, my main professor for the core Theology classes. I had the opportunity to take a lot of classes with her and then be her AI down the road. There鈥檚 this echoing refrain: The blessing of a good-enough paper. This can be a low B paper. You’ve just got to do the thing sometimes. This isn’t your final word on religion as a whole or solving the psychological and mental health crises in America. It’s a step in the process.

Cristin: I think the coolest thing is to witness someone discover, through a series of good-enough papers, what they really want to write about. Because once you do that, then you start writing awesome papers. Then you鈥檝e developed the specificity and authoritative voice that makes academic writing shine. But you have to wade through the not-so-great drafts to get there.

Phil: And then it makes it all the more beautiful.

Phil Doud graduated from The Seattle School in 2013 with his Masters of Divinity and runs Heroically, a Life Coaching practice focused on helping people connect to their best self and build a thriving life. He has previously worked as a teacher and tutor, and at the school as an Assistant Instructor, Alumni Liaison, and Academic Advisor. His focus as a Writing Consultant is on helping students discover the unique processes that sustainably work for them to find their voice and integrate mind, heart, and spirit.

A former attorney, Cristin Fenzel works as a writing coach, movement teacher, and teaching theater artist. Cristin coaches writing using a creative, uplifting approach. Through dynamic questioning, she coaches writers to develop their ideas, substantiate their arguments, and become thoughtful readers of their own work. She is a graduate of the University of Notre Dame and the University of Arizona Rogers College of Law. She holds a Certificate in Editing and a Certificate in Writing for Children, both from the University of Washington. With over 15 years of professional and academic writing experience, Cristin also loves using movement and games 鈥� many of them drawn from her theater and improvisation training 鈥� to help writers develop a process that works for them. If you think and write best by bouncing your ideas back and forth with someone, Cristin might be a good fit for you!

The post Meet the Writing Center Consultants appeared first on The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology.